Amber Ontiveros – Woundings That Drive Imposter Syndrome

Connect with Amber:

• 
• amber@aoassociates.biz

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Ontiveros and Associates, LLC
• Consulting Practice
• Amber's Book
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 23
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 21

• “Neuroscience describes [the four woundings] as protective mechanisms to ensure you can keep self-esteem intact so you can overcome any situation and ultimately eat.”
• “One of the very first things that I tell my clients is: you have to stop caring what other people think of you.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky alongside my co host, friend, partner, colleague at Salary.com, Dwight Brown.

 

Dwight Brown: 0:56

Hey, David!

 

David Turetsky: 0:57

How you doing, buddy?

 

Dwight Brown: 0:58

Spectacular. How you doing?

 

David Turetsky: 1:00

Wow, you didn't get blinded by the eclipse the other day?

 

Dwight Brown: 1:03

No, I did not. I needed my little piece of cardboard with the pinhole. Actually, I totally missed the thing.

 

David Turetsky: 1:08

Cardboard? Pinhole?

 

Dwight Brown: 1:10

Yeah, they used to

 

David Turetsky: 1:11

Is that what that is?

 

Dwight Brown: 1:13

Well, when I was in elementary school, I remember that, maybe it wasn't for the eclipse, but I don't know.

 

David Turetsky: 1:18

Well there's some saying something because in elementary school, we used to have bomb raid shelter in place for the bombs that were going to blow up over our heads. And that was nuclear. Well, so that wouldn't have done, that would do done as much as that pinhole in that cardboard!

 

Dwight Brown: 1:34

Yeah, exactly. Give me a lead room!

 

David Turetsky: 1:38

Yeah, well, yeah, lead pants. Amber! Amber Ontiveros is our guest today. Amber, how are you?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 1:45

Oh, fabulous. I'm so glad to be here with both of you. Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 1:48

Well, we're glad for you to be here. And Amber, why don't you tell us a little bit about you?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 1:53

So I own a professional services consulting firm, a change management firm in Portland, Oregon. I've been doing change management around equity and civil rights for about 25 years. I formerly worked for the Bush administration for a year and I worked for the Obama administration for six years. I'm actually an expert in discrimination. I used to investigate agencies for discrimination. And I've written federal civil rights laws that determine discrimination. And then when I created my firm, my change management firm in 2014, the goal of the firm was to take all of the things that I had learned as a high level technical expertise to provide professional services to companies to create change. That is, that is legal.

 

David Turetsky: 2:50

Right. Well, that's all laudable. Thank you for doing that.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 2:53

Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 2:54

So Amber, though, what's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 2:58

Well, I think everybody knows I'm a geek, but I'm a super geek. I love, I love science. I love neuroscience. I love pretty much everything about the brain and consciousness. And we're going to talk a little bit about these woundings that I discovered within me, that I discovered as a result of studying the neuroscience of unconscious bias.

 

David Turetsky: 3:22

Well, I hate to break this to you, but there's nothing going on up in my brain. There's nothing there. After probably nine or ten concussions, there's nothing left. So

 

Amber Ontiveros: 3:30

Lucky. Lucky for you!

 

David Turetsky: 3:33

I don't know if the people around me would say that, but okay! But let's talk about our topic for today because it is going to be something very different and very interesting for the listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, we're gonna be talking about woundings that drive the imposter syndrome and oppression at work. So, Amber, what are woundings?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 4:03

So I was teasing you just a minute ago about lucky for you that there's nothing going on in your mind. I was teasing you because this is a very personal story, but I'm telling this story and using myself as an example, to heal the races. And by studying the neuroscience of unconscious bias, I studied this because I was unhappy with myself. I was very unhappy. And what I realized was that the way the brain works is it is holding you hostage to past woundings that occurred in your past that you are then projecting onto others all the time. I started calling them woundings, because these biases are really woundings that we when we have a new experience, our brain processes that and applies that wounding to that new experience so quickly you don't even know the wounding is being applied. So the four woundings are are this, I am not worthy. I am not enough. I have to win. And I don't have enough. And this is the result of these two biases that the neuroscience describes that are essentially self esteem protective mechanisms to ensure you can keep your self esteem intact, so that you can overcome whatever the situation is, so that you can ultimately eat. It's always about evolution,

 

David Turetsky: 5:52

Right. Protecting the core, right?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 5:53

It's protecting the core. Yes. So here's how these four woundings are playing out in the workplace, and amongst executives, pretty much amongst everyone, including in our relationships with our family and friends. If you're triggered, if you feel threatened, if you see oppression in the workplace, that is a result of the four woundings. And I will give a scenario so that you can see how I discovered it and then how I acted inappropriately as a result of those four woundings. So the woman who is competing with another woman in the workplace, when she sees another woman that has this skill that is different from hers, and she sees its value, what she thinks in her mind is, I am not enough, because she's comparing herself to the other person. I'm not enough. Compared to what? Compared to the other person. So she sees something great in the other person. And then she thinks, Oh, I am not worthy, because this other person has this great skill that this other person has. And then what happens is, because she believes that there is only room for one person at the top, she believes she has to win. So she denies a person access to a resource or a something because she believes she doesn't have enough resources. And all of these are past traumas that somehow showed up in the workplace, or showed up in their in their past, that they're then projecting onto a new experience in the workplace and it's resulting in oppression. And not only not only that, but it results in imposter syndrome for the individual and executive because they're believing the belief that they have, and they are believing it. They don't know they believe it, but they do and so it carries it shows up in their action. So if I am treated badly, and I get angry, it's because I am believing it too. So think of it this way, David.

 

David Turetsky: 8:24

Yes.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 8:25

I no longer get mad at individuals who may act badly around me. I don't get mad at the person that is the racist towards me. Because I realize that he or she is playing out those same woundings! If I get mad, I'm believing that I'm not worthy, and that's not true!

 

David Turetsky: 8:52

And you're also giving that person power.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 8:54

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 8:55

But but, but these things, Amber, are very instinctual, right. There's the, you know, the dominance that some people have and it's because of how they project, it's because of the way they act. It's because of the way they speak or the aggressiveness of their behaviors. And we feed into it, to your point, from these woundings, but we feed into it because our past experience shows, our brain telling us what to do, if you don't listen to this, it could cause you injury, you could lose your job, you could lose your life, you could lose your food or your your your money, and it prevents you from doing something like what you're saying of not giving in. So isn't this just something that we're following our biological patterns in order to be able to survive?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 9:43

Yes. Yes, I am. That the point that I'm trying to make is that racism is not about race at all. It is really about false woundings, evolutionary mechanisms that are in the brain that you're applying. And so therefore, the way the neuroscience describes it, how do you change this? So we do change management, I don't want to participate in another bias training where all I hear about is information. I want to know how do I change me, so that I can understand my thoughts, so that I can then change those thoughts so that I can change those feelings. And the way that you do that, because the neuroscience also describes this is they indicate you have to slow down so that you can see the bias. So what I do is I teach I've been doing this for a while now is teaching my clients how to use mindfulness with themselves and then in teams, so that they can be aware of the bias as it's unfolding.

 

David Turetsky: 10:58

But that's but that's very, I mean, it's, it's easy for people who understand what you're saying, and can embrace it. But those are the very people that really, I don't want to say they don't need it. It sounds like everybody needs this. But it's really the other people that have had the woundings that have had this indoctrination to the racism, isn't it them that also need this or moreso need this than the people who are adopting that or would be adopting that?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 11:28

In my opinion, we all need it. And, and I say we all need it because and, and I will speak for myself, I am a woman, I am a person of color. And and I'm queer, I'm bisexual. So I have multiple isms.

 

David Turetsky: 11:47

Right.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 11:47

And for me, who's someone who has been oppressed, and has been discriminated against not only in work, but also in my company. In order for me to be a successful CEO, I need to understand risk, I need to understand how to properly prioritize resources. If I don't look at my own bias, I may not be properly assessing that. So this has in part to do with race, et cetera. But it has to do with all of your other thinking, that could be taking you down a path that you don't know, because again, if you're worried if you're an executive or a CEO, and you're worried that the other person is more brilliant than you, then I guarantee you that is going to affect profitability, because then you're not going to hire the smartest guy to do the blah, blah, blah and they may be the very person that you need to bring in resources. So I agree with you, you know, the people that have that are creating the oppression need it, but the oppressed need it as well. And we need it so that we can take back our power and say, okay, company, if you aren't going to treat me in the way that I deserve to be treated, that's okay, because someone else will. This teaches you boundaries, it teaches you

 

David Turetsky: 13:14

Right self confidence. And if if y'all don't like me in the way that I show up, that's okay. And I also teach growth mindset, because mindfulness is really about loving kindness and compassion and seeing mistakes as the most important opportunities for growth. And that's what this does.

 

Dwight Brown: 13:42

I would imagine that openness is probably one of the first things that needs to happen for this. And I would also kind of postulate that oftentimes the ones who do the most oppression, ie are the most wounded, also have these defense mechanisms that prevent them from having that openness. Would would you agree with that? And how how do you? How do you get past that?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 14:10

I would absolutely agree with you. And I would say, so part of the of the coaching that I do includes shadow work. It has to include shadow work so that they can process the trauma that is resulting in the bad behavior, because the way that it works, just so you all understand how the mind is actually working. The belief in your mind that you don't know exists, it's in that unconscious is creating the thought. The thought is in the conscious part of your mind. In other words, you can see it and you're aware of it, then that belief creates the thoughts then it creates the emotion and then it creates the behavior. So if you have behavior, you're like, where did that come from? It's back there in the thought that's in your mind that you don't know exists that's resulting in your behavior. And so the way that we get addressed the issue on the downstream is we address the issues on the upstream that are resulting in the behavior on the downstream. And so some of the things that I do are very different from the other consultants that may be approaching this work, which is, I like to work with difficult agencies, because it's always about some kind of trauma toxicity in that particular division. And what I do is I am vulnerable first. And by me being vulnerable, I then allow the agency and the client to be vulnerable. And I take a non judgmental approach, a loving kind of approach, because if I judge them to them, I'm only exacerbating their woundings and further traumatizing them. By dissolving those woundings, you then heal them, and then they can get on the path to wellness. And so part of this is, is mindset. And part of this is policy, we got to get the team in the room to help them get on the same page, help them understand how to use these techniques within themselves as executives and in teams, and then once they start coming together as a group and seeing part of their issues are inside of each of us, then we can incorporate strategies, to then create a team environment that then results in an actual policy development.

 

David Turetsky: 16:46

So I have a really dumb question, then the political environment has gotten crazy, let's just say it. And there are, there are lots of people that are saying the quiet parts out loud as it were. I hope you're busier than ever, I hope you're able to work with these groups and heal the divides. Because it seems like those divides are getting deeper. And and they're coming more to light than they probably should be. Although it's good to know who the who the people are, who have to help I guess.

 

Announcer: 17:25

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David Turetsky: 17:36

And I guess my question is, do you see this any different than the past where maybe these differences were a little bit more hidden underneath the the surface layers?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 17:46

I honestly believe, David and Dwight, I believe that what is happening right now on the planet is good. And for those of you that choose to buy my book, the book is it is spiritual. And I discovered these two, both a problem that was within me, a namely the oppression that lives within me. And I discovered the tools through a spiritual experience. And I firmly believe based on that spiritual experience, that what is happening on the earth today is good. And what I mean by that is this, individuals on the earth are throwing up their pain. They're throwing up their darkness and and their suffering. And in order to transform that is what has to happen so that we can be on the path to wellness.

 

David Turetsky: 18:49

So you mean people are being honest, is what you're saying?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 18:53

Yes, people are finally being authentic.

 

Dwight Brown: 18:56

It's kind of a purging of senses.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 18:58

It is a purging. That is exactly right. Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 19:01

I'd rather I'd rather they don't purge that much, though. I actually, the reason why I'm laughing is it's actually making me quite nervous. I'm not, I'm not confident that there won't be major upheavals that occur within the next, you know, X number of months till the election and beyond. And that the divides that are being created in the political environment, that are probably not being done in the most genuine ways are going to cause divisions that that if not break the country will at least cause the country to self harm.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 19:44

Well, how about this, David? I am in absolute agreement with your assessment. However, I absolutely know and I absolutely believe it has to happen. And it has to happen in order for us to heal, it has to happen in order for us to grow. And I say that because some of the systems are jacked up. The systems are, are full of oppressive assumptions for all of us, for all of us, all of us. And so therefore, they have to come to the light of day that which is hidden will be revealed and it is being revealed. And through that we can then heal it. It has to happen, David, and I'm not scared at all. I honestly David I have never been happier. But again, it's it always has to do with mindset. I choose to be happy. I choose to be happy in the face of the crumbling, I couldn't be happier.

 

Dwight Brown: 20:54

The piece that I worry about with it is that through that purging process, further woundings are happening. You see that polarity of things and the strength of you know, we're getting rid of one wounding, but we're causing another in an individual.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 21:16

So Dwight it's not accidental that my book is out now. It's it's not accidental.

 

David Turetsky: 21:24

By the way, we're gonna put a link to it, Amber, in the show notes. So people should read it. It will be an interesting read. And yeah, we'll we'll definitely have in the show notes.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 21:35

Yeah. And I mean, let's, let's just, let's just be authentic here. What's happening on the earth is spiritual, it's absolutely spiritual. It's some kind of energetic thing. In which case, how will each of us respond in in the face of darkness?

 

David Turetsky: 21:56

Well, so it may be spiritual in some ways, but it's definitely about power and the other.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 22:02

Oh, yes.

 

David Turetsky: 22:03

And it's, I think it's, you may be absolutely right, that it is spiritual, in how people can can see it. But how it's manifesting or how it will manifest is 100% in power.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 22:18

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 22:19

And, you know, again, we don't, we try not to get into politics or religion on this podcast, even though we're kind of open about both. But one of the things that worries me about how this intersects with the world at work, is that you can't separate yourself, as you said before, you can't separate your authentic self from work, or home. It doesn't exist. It's not possible. And even though we try and put on a brave face and pretend we're freaking robots at work, we're not. And so how the political environment and economic environment goes, how our emotions come from home, get brought to work. So you know, that, that being said, I don't disagree with you, Amber, I'm just saying that, to me, this is more about how does one group get in and stay in power? And how another group has to deal with that?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 23:18

Yeah. And here's the thing, David, I am honestly in complete agreement with you, in which case, the reason why I'm doing this now and plan to be doing this for the next several years with my clients is because because of where we're at today, do, do you want to feel good and feel empowered in the face of chaos? It can happen! It is possible! And I say that because I'm living proof. If you want to manage your emotions in in turmoil, it is absolutely possible. It requires you to understand your mind process your feelings and how have the tools so that you can do that.

 

David Turetsky: 24:08

I think those tools are going to be required.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 24:10

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 24:10

Because what I what I'd like to kind of talk about next is you had mentioned this quickly, how does the woundings impact that imposter syndrome, we're talking about an impression at work and how can people deal with that? So Amber, you know, how do people deal with that? How do they overcome these things? Because I've heard lots of people talking about impostor syndrome, especially when they're trying to go for a promotion, they're going for a job that they, you know, don't really feel qualified for. I know, that's not what you mean. But that's how it manifests in certain ways, doesn't it?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 24:41

Yes. Well, okay, so the techniques that I that I use there, it's they're all different tools, and it's all based on neuroscience. So, if you think about it, impostor syndrome is really is really about some kind of belief that you have have about yourself that you don't know how to do something or that you're not confident or whatever, in which case, so there is a reason there is a method to my madness of why I have specific coaching tools. So mindfulness, meditation, breathwork, growth mindset, I also use a specific tool that I obtained from the American Psychological Association where they studied top performing athletes. This is all based on neuroplasticity. So impostor syndrome is is the are these beliefs that you have about yourself. And so using these tools, including visualizing you're succeeding at something, changes your brain, because then the neuroscience shows your brain doesn't know the difference between an imaginary experience and a real experience. And so by practicing these techniques, this is what top performing athletes do. They practice their particular technique so that their brain and their body are in sync to absolutely be able to do what they need to do. So these are the techniques that I use to help you change your brain. And then your brain goes, Oh, yeah, I absolutely know how to do this. Because you visualize it, you focus on your breath, you go to sleep using this visualization technique, that then locks it into your mind.

 

David Turetsky: 26:32

So to dumb it down, practice makes perfect.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 26:35

That's right.

 

David Turetsky: 26:38

No, seriously, when we coach hockey with with very young players, especially, we take them through drills that they don't understand.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 26:46

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 26:46

And then when it manifests in the game, and they go, Oh, my gosh, that's what we, the reason we did that in practice is because of what I just did! Yes, exactly.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 26:55

Yes! Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it, David. That's exactly right.

 

David Turetsky: 26:59

Yeah. Well, it takes me a while to get

 

Dwight Brown: 27:00

We all go at different paces.

 

David Turetsky: 27:04

We do. We do. Yeah, I'm in the last group, but but so. So that also gets to the oppression at work, though, right? Because it's those people who buy into that syndrome, they buy into the fact that they're not worthy. That's why they are believing what people say, and what their brain is saying. Right?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 27:26

Yes. So one of the very first things that I tell my clients is, you have to stop caring what other people think of you.

 

David Turetsky: 27:37

That's an incredible skill to have!

 

Amber Ontiveros: 27:38

The number one thing you should focus in on is yourself, including with your partner, you need to believe in yourself. Don't don't give an F what other people think of you. You need to focus on yourself. And by using mindfulness, you can see where you're jacked up! In which case, be just be when you jack up, it's okay you pull yourself together, I made a mistake. Again, growth mindset, I made a mistake. It was a I had to do that mistake, so that I now am here. Thank you mistake for making me grow. That's how it really works!

 

David Turetsky: 28:16

I gotta tell you, I've failed many times in my career. And I tell people this all the time that I don't know what success means, unless I've known what failure means.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 28:26

That's right.

 

David Turetsky: 28:26

And being at the bottom means you look up and you see what the top looks like. And you go, yeah, that's where I want to be without having that mindset you just can't.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 28:36

Yes.

 

Dwight Brown: 28:37

Right.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 28:37

So I'm excited. We're going to be teaching executives of color here locally here in Portland, and we're going to teach a variety of exercises like breaking the habit of being small. So helping executives identify what is their number one goal? What do they think is the barrier to achieve it? And then how would someone that easily could do it, how could they do it? And that helps them identify their false belief. And it also helps them identify the psychological state that they need to embody so that they can easily do it. And then we incorporate it into a visualization script for them that they then use on themselves.

 

David Turetsky: 29:21

That's brilliant.

 

Dwight Brown: 29:22

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 29:22

It really is.

 

Dwight Brown: 29:23

It's much needed.

 

David Turetsky: 29:25

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So let's talk about question number three, which is examples of how people deal with this on their own. So obviously, one is that they could read your book, that's one easy way of doing it. But what are other examples of people being able to say, I can overcome this? I can overcome the woundings. I can, I can realize that I'm not an impostor, you know, you talked a little bit about mindfulness, you talked about meditation. But what are things that people can do on their own?

 

Amber Ontiveros: 30:19

Well, all of the techniques that I have created, I obtained on my own. So all of these, you could get online through YouTube. So I'll tell you what they are and you could literally create your your own program. One, start doing meditation every day, five minutes, just start with five minutes. That will help you start seeing, seeing your bias, it will also help you improve your creativity, it will start it will also improve your emotional response. So meditation, the other thing is breathwork that helps you reduce your stress and cortisol levels. Why do you do this? Because that typically comes up when you started thinking I suck ass, right? These are all all

 

David Turetsky: 31:15

That's a technical term, by the way.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 31:17

Yeah, that is a technical term. These are all tools. So mindfulness, breathwork, right? Start asking yourself questions. So so here's one for all of you listeners, thoughts, feelings are a choice. Is the thought or feeling you are choosing right now helping or hurting you? Ask yourself that question. So I'm angry at somebody, how is that helping you? I'm ruminating! How is that helping you? Start probing asking yourself some questions. Do I like where I'm at? If I like where I'm at, you don't need to ask yourself these questions. If you don't like where you're at, these are all about self care. And mindfulness and meditation improves your confidence. It is scientifically shown.

 

David Turetsky: 32:11

Yeah, I'm trying to work on my breath work. But I'm serious.

 

Dwight Brown: 32:14

No but it is true!

 

David Turetsky: 32:15

Yeah, it is true. The other day, I had a difficult conversation with someone. And to your point, I chose not to engage, I chose to shut down a little bit, and to not respond right away, to kind of gather my thoughts about what would be the most constructive thing to say, to not destroy the relationship with this person, and also not throw out potential business that I could be losing if I did that. And it was very difficult, because I'm a stubborn jerk. And I've been a jerk for a long time and I know that. And so I've been trying to do my best at focusing on what about myself I don't like and changing that, Amber. And it's hard. It's very, very hard.

 

Dwight Brown: 33:05

It's painful.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 33:06

So David, so David, let me give you a very specific technique to, to the example you just described. So one of the techniques I use is called mindful listening, and what you do in the moment, when you're triggered, you focus on your breath. So you focus on the tip of your nose, and as your breathing think in. And as you breathe out, think out. Now you're doing this to calm down your emotions, to to regulate yourself, that helps you compose yourself and then what I want you to do is ask yourself these questions. Why am I angry? Why am I triggered? First the behavior that someone else is doing? And then so ask yourself that question, then what are the beliefs that I would have to have to be triggered? And then you want to ask yourself those questions about the other person. So what's happening when you get angry is there's something about that person's behavior that is, let's say it's, they're acting disrespectful, whatever. There's something about that behavior, they're seeing something in you, that is resulting in their woundings coming up that's resulting in their bad behavior. Then when you get mad and have an emotional response within you, there's something within you that you're agreeing to that disrespectful behavior, in which case, by asking these questions and focusing on your breath, you're analyzing your false beliefs and you're trying to identify theirs. And it may only until you get good at this, it may only help you stay composed in the moment that then enables you to process and analyze that situation that you can then come back to at a later time. And I would say one other thing to you, David, I would encourage you to never say there's something about you that you don't like. Whatever within you is something that you would like to change, that's okay. But the reason why you do not want to say to yourself, I don't like me is because there is a part of the brain, the back of the brain, it's called the reticular activation system. It holds you hostage to what you believe about yourself. And so if you think that you suck ass, it will only allow you to experience through your senses experiences that validate that belief. And so I would encourage you to again, talk to yourself in a loving, compassionate way. Because whatever it is that you quote, don't like about yourself, chances are, it was created from a wounding and a place of unconsciousness, in which case you were innocent. So f-ing forgive yourself and let it go.

 

David Turetsky: 36:41

Amber, that was amazing. That was wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the HR Data Labs podcast. Dwight, thank you.

 

Dwight Brown: 36:48

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Amber, given us a lot to think about here.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 36:52

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 36:52

Yes. And we are going to process all of this. And as I said, we're gonna put the link to your book in the show notes. If people want to reach out to you. We'll put your email address as well.

 

Amber Ontiveros: 37:02

Thank you!

 

David Turetsky: 37:03

Thank you very much for listening. Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 37:08

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