Tonille Miller – How to Identify and Reverse Toxic Company Culture

Connect with Tonille:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Tonille's book
• Tonille's website
• Consulting Practice
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 25
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 23

• “What data is showing is that most organizations that do focus on their culture see 4 times more revenue growth and stock prices over 800% higher [than] those that don’t.”
• “There are surprisingly a lot of great ways to measure company culture…”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology, invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR data labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:44

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. And like always, we try and find fascinating people inside and outside the world of HR to give you the latest on what's happening and what affects you today. Today, we have Tonille Miller. Welcome Tonille, how are you?

 

Tonille Miller: 1:02

I'm great. David, how are you? Besides

 

David Turetsky: 1:04

Very chilly. Unfortunately, spring has being chilly. decided to throw us a curveball here in Massachusetts and we have frost warnings every night this week. So yeah, I hope the plants I planted are going to be fine. So Tonille, tell us a little bit about you and how you got to this moment in your career?

 

Tonille Miller: 1:23

Absolutely. So I've spent most of my career in the large consulting firms, couple of startups as well as a couple of global companies. And then a couple of years ago, I just started my own thing. And so I've been doing the same work primarily, but it's all for myself now, which is really fun. Because I get to kind of pick and choose the clients. And it's a lot around culture and hybrid distributed teams. It's change and transformation, all that good stuff.

 

David Turetsky: 1:46

Cool. So Tonille, one thing we asked every guest on the HR Data Labs podcast is, what's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Tonille Miller: 1:56

Well, up until now, nobody, not hardly anybody knew this about me. But now I've told a few folks. But basically, during the pandemic, I took up painting, and now I'm probably got about 30 different canvases that I've given some to friends and family, I have my apartment full of it, and I'm just having a blast doing it.

 

David Turetsky: 2:12

That's awesome. That's like spurring on your creativity. That's wonderful. Well, your creativity will be on show today, because we're gonna be talking about something very near and dear to a lot of our hearts, which is culture. And so our topic for today is culture, how toxic culture can manifest and what you can actually do about it. How do you measure it? And how can you evolve and improve your culture? So Tonille, our first question is, we hear a lot about culture these days. And you actually have this in your book as well. The culture can either be a toxic chemical or an autonomous vehicle for driving strategy. What do you mean by that? How does that actually work?

 

Tonille Miller: 2:57

Yeah, no, thank you for the question. And I think this is the interesting part. Because I think a lot of we all know that culture is important. We hear the stats, we read the articles, but we don't really know I think a lot of folks are kind of mistaken on what it actually is. And that it actually can be a strategic lever. And so what I always think of it as is, you know, culture is absolutely going to make or break the organization in the form of profitability, productivity, engagement, agility, collaboration, innovation, all these things that, you know, organizations want, customer satisfaction, turnover, health care costs, even all that stuff. So it's really important in that way. But with data showing is that, you know, most organizations focus their culture, but do focus on their culture, they see, I think it's four times more revenue growth, I think the other number there is like, over 800% of stock price is 800%, higher than those that don't focus on it deliberately. And then those again, who are focusing on the culture deliberately, they see a 13% in sales per employee. So like, those are compelling stats, like that's not just fluffy stuff. So that's what I opened up with that, because I think it's important to ground us in the fact that it actually is important, it actually is strategic. It's not just, you know, Taco Tuesdays. And along those lines, I think that's where we get tripped up, right, because I think, you know, a lot of folks believe that it is the Taco Tuesdays, it is the foosball tables. And to be honest, on the contrary, culture does not require being co located. So the way I think of it is, culture is the lifestyle of the organization. So it really governs how people interact, how they mingle, how they hustle, how they behave together, whether they're in the office or at home, or even sending emails on the train, you know, or during their commute. So they're all there demonstrating your culture in all of those places. So it doesn't even require being in the same building. And I have always told people, I feel like you can actually build a stronger, more inclusive and effective culture actually, when you're in that hybrid or distributed environment because it forces you to be very intentional about it and making sure that you're embedding it in to everything that you do rather than just, you know, not really thinking about it and kind of it just organically happens based on the lowest common denominator of behavior that's tolerated. And so that's what we want to kind of steer away from,

 

David Turetsky: 5:06

who are typically the leaders of this culture? Is it really from the head down? Or is it really, that HR needs to drive it and that the leaders need to kind of follow? Who actually owns culture to company?

 

Tonille Miller: 5:18

Yeah, and I would say this is with, you know, beyond culture, this is certainly applies to culture. But it really could apply to any strategic initiative or thing that you're trying to, employee experience for example, but I would say, it needs to be role modeled by leaders. And I'm talking role models in the sense of everything that leaders do, and everything they allow to take place and allow other people to do, everything they're telling stories about, everything they're rewarding or punishing: that's the culture. And so leaders do need to lead it in that way, but you know, HR is really good at I think operationalizing it through different ways of embedding into the organization. But I honestly think culture, it should be owned by everybody. Like we're all like, we all want to be in a good environment. Nobody wants to work in a toxic environment. And so I think the onus is on each individual person also, to drive the culture they want to see. And all what that means is how I treat people every day, how I interact and how I behave. And every single person impacts the culture so I really think everybody owns it.

 

David Turetsky: 6:12

Everybody owns it. But is there a leader? Is there someone who kind of like, I know that most in organizations, we look up to the CEO to kind of be that leader, to kind of drive, you know, how things are portrayed, or at least how they think the organization should act?

 

Tonille Miller: 6:27

Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I has to be led by leader. So yes, it needs to be 1,000% owned by leaders on the top, but then it needs to trickle down and everybody else needs to own it. Because one of the biggest problems that we see with bad cultures or toxic cultures is a lot of the symptoms are really coming from leaders not role modeling and or leaders talking out of one side of their mouth, but they're doing something else over here. And that's the thing, too, I think a lot of people get confused on is that there's not going to be a one size fits all magical, beautiful culture. And it really depends on the organization, what your strategic goals are, and like how you want to operationalize the strategy, you know, through the culture. But the point is, the biggest problem is no matter what that culture you want it to be, if there is in congruence between what we say is the culture, and what we allow to happen, that's when you lose all credibility as a leader and as an organization. So that's really the most important key there.

 

Announcer: 7:17

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David Turetsky: 7:27

So let's go to question two, how does the toxic culture manifest? You talked a little bit about toxic culture and how it can infect but what is the impact of a toxic culture?

 

Tonille Miller: 7:38

Yeah, well, so a couple things. I mean, if you're cool with this, I can talk about a few things that I mentioned in the book, which are like the root causes and solutions, because we all see it as I go through these I'm sure people will be like, oh, yeah, I've seen that. Yep, that, but we don't always know where it comes from. So I like to kind of help people understand that. So again, number one, what we just talked about that incongruence. That's number one, that is the one of the biggest sources of a toxic culture. So this is like when leaders not living up to the standards that they're talking to, not punishing bad behavior, allowing that bad behavior to exist. That type of thing that really erodes trust, that undermines the foundation, because then people see, oh, we see this, but this is okay over here, you know. And so then that creates all kinds of problems, even beyond the culture creates those other behaviors and problems in the way that people work together. Who knows potential, you know, really, when you think about ethical behavior, or lack thereof, that also starts that a little bit.

 

David Turetsky: 8:28

Right.

 

Tonille Miller: 8:29

The other piece is interesting that I've seen in a few places is where the leaders are not leading. So just like you mentioned, you know, in my I think of leaders as the parents of the company in a way, right? So when you think about like an absent parent, in the family system, it's the same thing as when leaders are not setting the vision and are not setting the structures, maybe they're just kind of that figurehead, but they're not really interacting with folks and kind of really making things happen and owning them. So I've seen that be really problematic, because then the leadership team and the different departments start operating in fiefdoms and silos. And I'm sure people have seen that in companies, lots of times, it's because that leader is not a strong leader, and they're not bringing everybody together on the same vision. So that's a big piece and that obviously impacts the whole organization as well. So then the solution to that it really is kind of building, knocking those silos down. Having that leader lead at that really high level vision and really building a collaboration muscles across the organization. And then I think another really big one is a lack of transparency, especially when it's critical. And I think especially today, because with social media, everybody's a broadcaster, everybody has access to information on Glassdoor, LinkedIn everywhere else. And so it's kinda like, if you're not going out and getting in front of as an organization, as a leader and being transparent with your people, they're going to hear about it somewhere else, and that's not going to be a good thing. So that's really important because that really builds or loses trust, depending on how transparent you are. And then I think that a lot of that comes into when you think about when layoffs are happening or there's rumors of layoffs.

 

David Turetsky: 9:54

Right.

 

Tonille Miller: 9:54

That is a time to be very transparent, right? Because people are going to hear it and feel it and then you start creating stories in their minds. And then that's obviously no one's focused on the work when they're worried about stories and drama and things like that. So that's one. The other piece we mentioned a little bit is like the tolerating bad behavior. So we've all like heard that no Asshole Rule, I'm sure we've all heard that.

 

David Turetsky: 10:14

Sure, sure.

 

Tonille Miller: 10:15

But unfortunately, we see like, well, maybe this is like this rockstar salesperson who brings in so much revenue, but he treats people like crap, or there's this woman over here who's you know, gaslighting in bullying her people, but then she's kind of kissing up and kicking down that kind of thing. So people don't really understand what's going on there. That is very toxic and there's a lot of mental health issues that come out of situations like that. So that's one cause of toxic culture as well. And in this, you have to really be proactive, right? Like, there's a lot of things you can do to get around this, like in those cases, you know, implementing 360 reviews, lots of anonymous feedback, lots of channels on auditing, exit interviews is really important. And just really creating that psychological safety is a good way to kind of get around that and you know, find those people and kick them out. And then I think the other one, too, that I see a lot of and this is kind of counterintuitive, is you know, you we've all probably experienced an organization where everybody's so nice, oh my gosh, everybody's like this. I mean, I'm from the Midwest. So I've experienced a lot of those, and it's wonderful, it wouldn't seem toxic. But if there's no candor, and people are not holding people accountable, and they're not comfortable sharing things honestly with each other, that actually can become toxic too even though you wouldn't expect it. Because the performance starts suffering, there's not, you know what I mean, people aren't directly challenging people openly, that can be very problematic.

 

David Turetsky: 11:31

I've seen certain situations where that specific situation happens, when they believe they're getting bullied at work, though, where they can't be honest. Or they believe that getting that honesty out or being transparent with maybe their boss or the leader will cause them to get piled on a little bit or, or beat down. And so that yes, I totally agree with you, that's toxicity. But is it, and you know, maybe to the extent of which is, is bullying rampant in some organizations, especially when they have toxic cultures?

 

Tonille Miller: 12:05

Yeah, I mean, I think it absolutely is. And that's the thing is, like, it's one thing, if there's one person that's like that, I mean, that obviously, you still need to get rid of them. But the point is, for every other person that sees that, experiences that whether they are being bullied, or they're witnessing others being bullied, the more that that happens, people start thinking it's okay, it becomes normalized. And that's what creates that toxic culture and proliferates. Because, I mean, I don't think any organization starts out with a bunch of jerks, right? It's usually like, there's one or two people that are doing things, and they keep getting away with it. And that's why we need to be deliberately, that's where the leaders come in, it's like, you can't let those people stay there. Because it may sound great that they're bringing in that extra revenue today. But that's the short game because the the damage they're doing and the financial metrics that come with that long term and the you know, mental health and all that stuff, it's just, it's not worth it. So that's what I always advise folks on and then with that comes that psychological safety, right? So there's like, like, if you think of adding to brand names for like Amazon, I think formerly Microsoft, maybe a long time ago, there's certain other organizations where they were operating from a fear based culture. When you have that there's not psychological safety, which means people are not going to speak up, that means, Boeing, right? All the different news that's coming out around Boeing now, people didn't feel comfortable speaking up. And so then all these horrible accidents are happening, and the quality of the product isn't there. So that is an extremely dangerous, because it's not just dangerous to the people inside the company, it actually happens and it impacts all the customers and different people across the world. So those are just like some of the flavors just at a high level of a couple of the ways that some of these toxic culture show up.

 

David Turetsky: 13:33

I want to talk a little bit about that transparency piece you were talking about. Because transparency, with disingenuous, disingenuous I think that's the word, that you're bringing up especially when it came to the layoffs. And we saw some pretty famous horrible examples of this, when a CEO would get in would communicate layoffs via social media. And they would use awful examples that kind of were totally tone deaf, given some of the situations that they were in whether it was from an incentive perspective, or whether it was from the situation that was clearly, you know, wrong or not true. And so that had a huge backlash against them, and how to how do we how do we survive? How does the company survive that cultural earthquake that happens when when those things occur? Or tsunami, you know, pick your natural disaster. How do they how do they survive that?

 

Tonille Miller: 14:29

Yeah, it's such a tricky one. And this is one of the biggest things I try to advise, like, if I'm working with a company, and they're gonna have to go through layoffs, which is kind of common in my work is a lot of its transformation and change and automation. And so inevitably, there ends up being that flavor to it sometimes. And the number one thing I focus on with them though, is we need to say as much as we can legally. I know legally that there's certain different parameters for some companies where they can't say everything or they can't say certain things to certain people until it's time. But there is a lot more transparency a lot of the waiting on that, it's because people don't they're just not comfortable. It's more of an emotional, psychological thing and they don't want to. And it's almost like, do you think that you're just not going to have to lay people off because you wait longer to tell them? No, you knew months ago. And so what I do, I guide them. And I say, let's make sure we get everybody a coach, whether it's HR leaders, or whoever it is, and managers who have to deliver the message. Half the battle is them just being uncomfortable delivering it, so we need to coach them and train them on how to deliver it, but to your point, not tone deaf. It needs to be as early as possible, I always say, because then it gives people and I'll give you some examples in a moment of when this has gone really well and how they did it. But the more time you give people, the more that they they trust you and they really admire you as an employer, because again, we all know, layoffs are inevitable at times, but the fact is, if you give them a hand in the game, you're as transparent and honest with them as early as possible, it gives them more time to look for another role, whether it's in the company or out of the company. And again, that just builds better goodwill. But then with that, again, I've seen we've all seen the Zoom calls that have been recorded by people lately with layoffs and the HR person, it was just horrible and tone deaf and there's no empathy. That's the other part is it's not just delivering as early as possible, but it's like, deliver it with the empathy that it's happening to you, literally, right? And thinking about how it's gonna impact them and their family and all and their esteem, livelihood, all that stuff. So what I would say that if you think about this on a positive note, Airbnb, I say it in the book, I will say it all day long, they will literally, I think Brian offered a masterclass and how you do layoffs well, during the pandemic he did this, right? And I don't need to go too in depth here, but there's a there's a spot in my book, you can Google it, like I think it's a May 2020 letter at Airbnb, and it's literally this letter that it covered everything in a letter, right? So everyone that was getting laid off, they got this email or this letter, or whatever. And literally, it was everything that all the companies that do it wrong don't do. So he gave them tons of severance, as much notice as possible. I think he let them keep the laptop, he was finding, helping them find jobs with other companies. One of the most important things that he did is in this letter he specified, this has nothing to do with your performance, because that's the other card that comes into this too, as people start thinking, Oh, I'm getting laid off, I must be a poor performer. So there's all these like downward spirals that happens psychologically when someone gets laid off. And then the impacts and the ripples throughout the organization, because everyone else is worried that they're next. So that all kind of play all of these things I'm rattling off here really play into the whole ecosystem of transparency, doing layoffs right, you know what I mean? And just kind of like, not just for the people, because it's the right thing to do, but also for the ecosystem of the company. Because like I said, you lose so much productivity, and well being and all this stuff and trust from your people that are still left there. And that's actually an even bigger problem, right? Because again, they're not, they're not adding the value you want them to, they're looking for other jobs, and they're probably not giving you their best on any level at that point in time, because you've broken trust with their friends. And now they have to cover their friends' jobs because their friends got laid off. So that was a lot of real talk there. But those are just some of the things that I see when you want to be thinking about when it comes to transparency and layoffs and things like that.

 

David Turetsky: 17:56

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I can talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So the third question, which is probably going to be a long one, because this is a big question. What can people do to create a great culture? One that drives organizational strategy, and in your words enables people to do the best work of their lives?

 

Tonille Miller: 18:37

Yeah, well, I would say again, there's no one

 

David Turetsky: 18:37

But those things are important Tonille, because size fits all that works for every company, because some people are like, Oh, well, we want to be more innovative in this field. Or over here we want to increase revenue or, you know, charging towards this or that. So first of all, getting clear on what exactly you're trying to achieve as an organization is a great starting point. And then you reverse what enables you to do is to be able to show the correlation, engineer the culture from there to deliver the behaviors and the actions and the ways of working to deliver that strategy. So when I think of great cultures, I think of again, the one I always use this example because it's such a great example, but it's the one that evolved at Microsoft. So before Satya Nadella I mean, it was definitely that fear based culture was very, it was not a good place to work on any level. I think everyone knows that. And so the good news is, when Satya not just, you know, not just casual correlation, you can took over, he basically came in and said, Hey, we want to continue, we want to attract we want to cultivate and retain high performers. How do we do that now because this culture is no longer serving us? And so what they did was they basically took this really holistic approach, and I think it was only a matter of like nine months or so. And they went from being what they call as a culture of know-it-alls to one actually show a correlation between the behaviors, the of learn-it-alls, leveraging growth mindset work from Carol Dweck. And so it became this whole new flip on oh, we're not the most, we're not the smartest people in the room, we're going to ask questions, we're going to not be afraid to experiment with things and try things out and fail. And so now today, they're like one of, if not the most valuable company in the world. So how they did it was again, they really grounded it in Carol outcomes, as well, as, you know, what did people do, how did they Dweck's worked around the growth mindset. And what they, some of the guiding principles they use I think was, first of all, they really had the leaders, as we mentioned, role model and lead this and really role modeling vulnerability and humility. And this can come in all kinds of different flavors, some leaders are more comfortable sharing certain things, some are not, I understand that. But there's only some level of that that you can share, it can be something as simple as, oh, I just started exhibit to be able to have this happen, which are really great using chatGPT and I don't know how to use it! Here's my funny story about how I was an idiot using GPT, or how I got some coaching from my intern, like, it could be something as simple as that. Or it could be what some CEOs have done in other organizations where they're literally saying, Hey, I'm not having a good mental health week, you know, and this is what it's feels like for me, and it opens up that space. And I've learnings, so that they can be repeatable. And I like your worked for some of these companies, it's really powerful how it opens up the space for other people to do that as well. So first of all, leaders are role modeling the vulnerability and humility, creating a safe to fail environment. Again, constantly reiterating the fact that like, like, for example, here's a tactical example, different at the beginning of a team meeting, or town hall, or whatever. It's like, oh, let's say this team, quote, failed, I don't really believe in failure. feedback loops, the feedback loops are very important, But let's say they tried something, and it was not really a success. Well, the leader could talk about that story in the town hall, and share with people hey, you know what, it's really great, they tried this thing over here, it wasn't successful. But guess what? They learned 1 2 3 4 and 5, and we're going to apply this to stuff over here and just kind of normalizing it and telling stories. And so kind of the more measurable feedback loops are better. So that that's really that leaders do that sort of thing is how they can really lead these things in a culture. And again, rewarding behavior like that, the behaviors you want to see, and recognizing that. Not allowing the folks that are doing the bad behaviors that we don't want to see, not allowing that to exist. Really coaching the managers, right? So the managers became more of coaches, they weren't just like taskmasters at Microsoft when wonderful, because then it enables the culture to be this changed, they actually became more coach-like and coachable up, down all around. So that was really powerful. And again, up, down all around feedback is also part of the mix here too, right? So just making it very normal to deliver that real time feedback. And, you know, we can talk more about what that looks like. But some cultures are not comfortable with feedback. And so I've seen this in companies, I've actually something that's seen as, as you think you mentioned, beginning a implemented different things where something as simple as we have a new way of working that at the end of each meeting, we go around, and we talk about what we did well, or what worked well, what didn't and what we're doing differently next time. And that way, it's not like anyone's being blamed, we're all kind of tackling it together, it becomes very normalized, and no one feels like they're emotionally hijacked at the end of a conversation, when someone's like, I have feedback for you. business strategy, not just as cool HR thing that they think It's more like, oh, no, okay, this is something we do at the end of every meeting no matter what, and it just becomes normal. So that's one thing they did. Metrics too, I'm sure your audience will appreciate the metrics, the measurement part of this. So really, building those metrics into the culture. And I think at Microsoft, what they did, or at least maybe it was another company, but they actually built the the new behaviors into the way people were measured and got incentives that they're gonna drive, and it's going to be, you know, and bonuses and things like that. So it's kind of like, I think there was a metric built into, like, how did you help other teams this year? Not just individually, how did you score and do things as a win on your own? It was like, who, what other teams that you help? How did you enable other teams' goals to take place, that kind of thing. So just that's just like a high level there. But just like some of the things another worthless exercise in HR. But it becomes part of the that they did, and some of the things I think companies could implement if they want to have a better culture.

 

Tonille Miller: 23:16

Yeah, absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 23:18

Well, and especially a lot of the people on this podcast, or listen to this podcast, feel very strongly about being able to measure and being able to measure your business strategy becomes part of the business life. And it makes it something that, you know, as you say, then puts food on the table, because it's, their incentives tied to it. So successes. Do you see it really often where companies that display these types of cultures are actually measuring it beyond Microsoft? Is it something that actually becomes part of the. Is it part of the performance rating system or the performance that's awesome. management system? Or is it something something else that gets rated?

 

Tonille Miller: 24:41

Yeah, absolutely. A couple things here. So yes, it is part of performance management. So it's like you don't have a lot of companies will say like, you know, how did you achieve your goals? And it's always like an individual, most companies it's like individual focus of like how you achieve something, but they actually build that question in it says, How did you help other teams? Like what did you do to help other teams, or other people this year? And so people are thinking about that from day one, the beginning of the year. And so it's keeping it top of mind. And they're looking for different ways that they can plug that in. And I think some of the other things if you're, if you're cool with that, I know your audience is all about measurement here and data. If you think about measuring a culture, there's a lot of there's actually, surprisingly, a lot of great ways to measure. So there's qualitative measures like employee surveys, there's focus groups, you could do an interview is just to specifically get at this piece. There's again, and love stay interviews and exit interviews to get real, accurate data, I think that's really helpful. You can look at your data like your employee turnover rates, productivity metrics, absenteeism rates, that also speaks to the culture. There's attendance, participation, and like level of enthusiasm, if you will, at company events, you can kind of start gauging some of that some of its more qualitative than quantitative, but you get the picture. There's also if you look at the frequency and the level of effectiveness of cross departmental cooperation, like if you if you know, for a fact, Oh, yeah, we have all these silos, no one's getting along. There's a culture problem there. So that's something and I think the external metrics are really interesting too, especially in today's world, which would be things like Glassdoor ratings, customer feedback, whether or not the company gets those awards that everybody wants, like the best place to work, and that sort of thing. So all of those things really can play into a nice culture measurement strategy.

 

David Turetsky: 26:22

And they can start by reading your book and be able to be much more armed and warned about the things to stay away from from a toxicity perspective, as well as to be you know, how to how to suggest moving into this to be able to become, or have a more effective, more positive culture.

 

Tonille Miller: 26:41

Yeah, absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 26:50

Tonille, thank you so much, we're actually going to have a link for your book on the shownotes. So that everybody can buy it and follow along at home because I think that one of the things that we hear from a lot of our listeners is, you know, we want to be able to do something coming out of these podcasts. And I think you've given us a lot of food for thought about how do you transform a culture as well as how do you measure it? And how do you make it an effective business strategy?

 

Tonille Miller: 27:15

Awesome. Well, I hope your listeners appreciate it. I hope they enjoy it. And I would love to hear if other folks have ideas or ways that they're doing these things or implementing a great culture, I'd love to hear them.

 

David Turetsky: 27:25

Well, thank you very much, Tonille, appreciate you being here.

 

Tonille Miller: 27:28

Thank you for having me!

 

David Turetsky: 27:29

And thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 27:32

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