Minette Norman – Inclusive Leadership Demystified

Connect with Minette:

• 

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• The Boldly Inclusive Leader
• The Psychological Safety Playbook
• Salary.com Consulting practice
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 3
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 1

• “You’re never going to get it all right as a leader, and so that openness to learning . . . is what we need more of.”
• “Organizations that have a higher level of diversity and an inclusive culture have better innovation, better financial performance, and more engaged employees.”

Announcer: 0:01

The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by salary.com Your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

 

David Turetsky: 0:38

Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, I'm your host, David Turetsky alongside my friend, co-host, partner, buddy, best friend in the world, Dwight Brown from Salary.com. Dwight, how are you?

 

Dwight Brown: 0:49

I am wonderful. How you doing, David?

 

David Turetsky: 0:52

I'm good. So we have the baritone today, and we have with us Minette Norman. Minette, how are you?

 

Minette Norman: 1:02

I'm doing well! I'm happy to be here with both of you.

 

David Turetsky: 1:04

Minette, tell us a little bit about your background.

 

Minette Norman: 1:07

Yeah, my background is that I unexpectedly spent 30 years in the software industry in Silicon Valley.

 

David Turetsky: 1:13

Wow!

 

Minette Norman: 1:14

Started as a tech writer, ended up as a VP of Engineering, and did a lot of things in between. Did that for 30 years, learned a ton, and then I left in 2019 and decided to start my own business. So now I am an author, a speaker and a consultant, and I focus on inclusive leadership.

 

David Turetsky: 1:31

And Minette, you've actually published a few books, and what we'll do in the show notes is actually have links to those books.

 

Minette Norman: 1:38

Great. Yeah, two. Two to be specific,

 

David Turetsky: 1:41

Perfect. That's wonderful! So Minette, one thing we always do with our guests is we ask one fun thing that no one knows about you.

 

Minette Norman: 1:49

Well, I think there are a few people who know this, but many don't.

 

David Turetsky: 1:52

Oh we can't use it then!

 

Minette Norman: 1:54

Well, it's only the people who have done this one activity with me.

 

David Turetsky: 1:57

Oh okay, we'll let it fly.

 

Minette Norman: 2:00

Okay, what people don't know when they meet me and kind of see my personality is that if you play a board game with me, I am fiercely, fiercely competitive. So don't you know better, be prepared if you're going to play Scrabble or boggle or code words or any of those games with me, because I play to win.

 

David Turetsky: 2:18

Okay, but you don't toss the table if you're

 

Minette Norman: 2:21

I don't. No, and I'm a very gracious loser, but

 

David Turetsky: 2:21

So we're going to keep all weapons off the losing. I'm all in when I play. table. Yeah, okay gotcha.

 

Minette Norman: 2:30

I don't even let young kids play, like win, when I play. I played with my best friend's nephew, and we used to play Risk. And I'm like, No, I'm not going to let you win, like you got to learn to play, and he respected me for that.

 

David Turetsky: 2:43

Aren't there the weapons in the game of? Oh, no, that was Clue, yeah, thank goodness I'd be, I'd be worried for my life.

 

Dwight Brown: 2:53

Exactly, she can only play with soft boards.

 

David Turetsky: 2:56

Well, Monopoly, I used to be the either the shoe or the racing car, and those have been known to fly across the room.

 

Minette Norman: 3:08

I hear you. Haven't we all?

 

David Turetsky: 3:09

Yeah, that and Legos. So today's topic is one In fact, I've also gotten a lot of the houses and the hotels stuck in my foot as I walk across the floor. that we love talking about. It's it's one that you know strikes the heart of us, because we want to always be better and try and improve every day in how we interact with people. What we're going to be talking about is inclusive leadership, demystified. What does it take to become a boldly inclusive leader? What specific skills and behaviors will create a team environment in which everyone can fully contribute? So our first question for you, Minette, is, can you connect the dots for us here, what is it about your long career in the software industry that led you to your current career as an author and focusing as a speaker on inclusive leadership?

 

Minette Norman: 4:08

I will do my best to connect those dots for you.

 

David Turetsky: 4:10

Please do, yes.

 

Minette Norman: 4:11

yYeah, and it the way it came to be was, I would say gradual is that, you know, when I started my career, I was an individual contributor, but about 10 years into that 30 year career, I started taking on management and leadership roles and increasingly bigger and bigger leadership roles. And what I noticed was that, you know, first of all, I had very few role models for what I thought was a really great leader. I had many role models that I would have said were negative role models. You know, like, I don't want to behave like that, that is really awful. That's not bringing out the best in me. It's shutting me up. It's silencing me. And so I was trying to figure out, like, what does it mean to be a great leader? And I was doing a lot of experimentation myself, because here I was leading, you know, from the get go, almost very global teams, very diverse teams, in terms of cultures and back. Rounds, and I realized I have no clue, but I'm going to try to get an education and learn everything I can. And so I read voraciously, and I really started to understand that most people who go into leadership, we get into those positions because we're good at something, and it's not necessarily leading teams of people, right? I was a great technical writer, and then I got promoted to lead technical writers. Then I led engineers and localizers and all these different people, and I was very badly prepared. And think one of the things that I saw is that there's one style, there's this sort of myth that there's one style of leadership that fits all. And first of all, I dispute that. But second of all, what I realized in leading teams is that you have a team of individuals, and each person needs something different. It's not a one size fits all management style. So I got really interested in how can we as leaders bring out the best in every single member of our workforce, no matter where they come from, no matter what their background? And I just realized that there's not much of this in the workplace, and what happens when we are not boldly inclusive, like we don't bring out the best in everyone, is that many people stay silent, they don't fully contribute, and they aren't able to do their best work.

 

David Turetsky: 6:14

They disengage.

 

Minette Norman: 6:16

They disengage, right? Because you engage when you feel like you're appreciated, you're seen, you're respected, and you can do great work. And when you feel that your voice is not welcome, your viewpoint is not welcome, you just kind of withdraw. And I think, honestly, the last few years, we heard that term quiet quitting. Well, that's been going on forever, because it's like, I'm not fully appreciated. I'll just sit back and do the minimum. So fast forward. Let me finally connect the dots for you, which is that in my last five years in tech, I was VP of Engineering at Autodesk. I had 1000 people on my org chart, and I was responsible for another 2500 so I had a very, very big job. I had a position of power and I had a position of privilege. And even still, what I noticed is that I'd be sitting in a staff meeting with my manager and my peers, and I often felt like my voice wasn't welcome. And I thought, you know, even when you get to this level, because, like, you kind of, I sort of thought like, when you get to a certain level, then it's different. It wasn't. The same dynamics of insiders and outsiders were present. And finally, I had enough, because I felt like I was being silenced. And I said, I have to, I have to do something about this. I need to help leaders do better. And so I left the industry, and I decided, you know, I'm going to write, I'm going to speak on this, and I'm going to help leaders to understand what it means to be inclusive to all and really bring out the best in everyone. So that's, sort of the long version of connecting the dots for me.

 

David Turetsky: 7:43

Well, that's really well done. The question I'd ask is, and it might seem like an obvious question, is it harder for a female in the tech world, obviously, or do you think this is more of a universal problem, and a lot of leaders, especially rising through the Peter Principle, don't get that kind of information to be able to be a good, inclusive leader?

 

Minette Norman: 8:07

I think the answer to that is a both/and. I think it's certainly harder when you are in you know, often the only I was, often the only woman in the room, you know. And then do you conform to the group norms, or did you stay true to who you are? Those things are really hard. But I think, to the second part of your question, I think this is hard for everybody, and that, you know, often women feel like they have to act more like men to fit in, to be part of the culture. But men, I mean, I am not faulting men. No one is trained, really, to do this well, and the models of leadership that we've all seen have been, you know, the traditional command and control. I know what's going on. I have all the answers. I cannot show any vulnerability and and honestly, this is, this is what we've seen for decades and centuries. And so I think we are all trying to unlearn that and figure out what is this new model of 21st century leadership, that that we need going forward?

 

David Turetsky: 9:01

And frankly, the stereotypes that we even see on TV and in movies, whether it's Michael Scott in the Office, whether it's you know Wolves on Wall Street, it's you know guys, can, you know, do what they do, because they're guys. And it's just, first of all, it's stupid. It should be seen as the comedy and parody that it is. But it also gets seen as, in some cases, it gets seen as, you know, just normal activity, which is horrible. It's stupid!

 

Minette Norman: 9:30

Exactly, exactly. And I feel like we really have to challenge those, those norms, because they will continue. And they they, they have continued for a really long time, unchecked for the most part.

 

David Turetsky: 9:40

Yeah.

 

Dwight Brown: 9:41

Yeah. I mean, I was talking with with somebody that I know who's going through this right now where they're now working with somebody who's very old school, and, you know, this gentleman has been at it for almost 50 years now. And the

 

Minette Norman: 9:57

We haven't. I find that so I mean, I don't actions are so rooted in the 1950s and sometimes you even want to be a downer, because I really, I am optimistic that we can change this, or I wouldn't be doing the work that I'm outside of that, sometimes it seems like we haven't gotten very far from the 1950s! doing. But one of the questions I got, you know, as someone who

 

David Turetsky: 10:12

Wee really haven't. spent 30 years in the software industry, is, Oh, it must have changed so much in your 30 years! You must have seen so much change! And I'm like, not really. And even the demographics have not changed that much in 30 in those 30 years, like when I when I got started in tech, you know that women were the minority, but not so differently than they are now, people of color, same thing. You know, it's just we didn't talk about it then. I think there is a little bit of a different

 

Dwight Brown: 10:47

Yeah, demographic, which is now we're a little bit more global in where we're getting our resources from. Obviously, we've been outsourcing and getting phenomenal resources from India. We've also been getting wonderful resources from China, and in many cases, we're getting it from Eastern Europe as well as now South America. So the sources of brilliant talent who are able to help us with what we thought we had the advantage on, which was development and programming and program management skills. We're actually seeing that other cultures are being able to be brought in, which is probably one of the other challenges we have, right? Is knowing how, as an American, US leader, to be able to, you brought this up at the beginning, to be able to talk to people in ways that are respectful when you have no appreciation for their culture! You know, it's interesting we have that, but at the same time, at least from what I see, we still have this holier than thou, or greater than thou, attitude toward, okay, that's just, that's a team from another country. And, you know, I see that. So it seems like it's just perpetually playing the loop. You know, the tape is on loop, it feels like. And I think we are getting more integrated into a multicultural environment, but I think we still got a ways to go.

 

Minette Norman: 12:13

Yeah, and, you know, that was one of the things that I saw a lot, because from pretty early on in my management career, I was managing teams all over the world. And, you know, use the word David outsourcing, and I think that's how we thought about it early on, is we're outsourcing this to China or India. But I did see this change, this is a positive change I did see. It used to be that, yes, we had these teams all over the world, but the headquarters in the US was the center of gravity. And I think, you know, in many companies that is still true, but I have seen this shift where we couldn't in the early days, when I was leading international teams, the workers were outside the US and the leaders were in the headquarters. And that has changed. And I think that, you know, to many companies and organizations' credit, they have realized there is incredible talent all over the world, and we cannot be so US centric. Some countries have, some companies have gotten better at that, and I think that recognition has been really important. But to your point, David, yeah, it was about outsourcing. And to your point. Dwight, like we are the ones who really have the innovation skills, or whatever it is, and we're going to send this work overseas. I think that has changed, and thank goodness that has changed.

 

Dwight Brown: 13:23

Yeah.

 

Announcer: 13:25

Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now back to the show!

 

David Turetsky: 13:35

Let's go to question number two, and let's talk more specifically about what's in your book, The Boldly Inclusive Leader. Can you give us a few of the ideas that you have and kind of give us some shed some light on what you mean by what is boldly inclusive?

 

Minette Norman: 13:52

Sure, I'd be happy to do that. I use the word boldly deliberately, because I think that what I've seen a lot of people as they enter into the world of diversity, equity, inclusion is it's, you know, and you've seen the backlash recently, but it can be a very daunting topic, and people, what most commonly do is they tiptoe into the work like, Oh, we're going to do a training on unconscious bias, and then we're going to call it quits for now. And the reason I use the word boldly is because I think we cannot go softly into this work. We have to go boldly in what I mean is we cannot hesitate. This work is important, as you said. How can we work with different cultures if we don't even know how to communicate? How can we be leaders of global and inclusive teams if we don't know how to listen to people who challenge us? So I think we have to go all in, and we have to be unflinching in the face of resistance, and we will get resistance, and we also have to be willing to make mistakes and get uncomfortable, because this work is uncomfortable and we're not going to get it right. None of us are perfect, and so to be willing to embrace the failures and the mistakes along the way and still be committed to creating an inclusive culture and being inclusive leaders. That's what I mean by boldly.

 

David Turetsky: 15:09

Well, people are very afraid of being imperfect, because they're worried about the things they say, the things they do, and whether it's going to potentially wind up into lawsuits.

 

Minette Norman: 15:19

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 15:19

In the world of inclusivity. We're trying to be better, but yet we're still worried about those areas and those issues that could get us into quote, unquote trouble. And there is some trouble here.

 

Minette Norman: 15:33

There is.

 

David Turetsky: 15:34

Are there, are there guardrails? Or do we just have to start worrying about not just what we say, how we say it, what we do, how we do it, but also just be willing to be more I guess, to the word is vulnerable? To be able to say, Oh, crap, I'm sorry. I'm just, I'm still learning in this, you know, please forgive me. I didn't mean anything by it. And be able to learn how to be, be more available, be more open, be more honest about it, I guess?

 

Minette Norman: 16:03

I think we do. I think that's exactly right. We we aren't going to get it right. We will make mistakes, and that that is just part of the journey that we're all on in doing this work and in honestly, in being human beings and being leaders, right? You're never going to get it all right as a leader. And so that openness, and that is a big part of what I talk about is, first of all, the self awareness of like, how am I showing up? And also the openness to learning, to saying I screwed up here. Of course, that was not my intent, but I recognize the impact on you was damaging, and I want to repair that damage, and I'm learning. And please, you know, stay with me as I do better that kind of thing, the way you said it David was, was exactly right. I think that's what we need more of. And instead, we get people who just say, like, I'm not going to take that first step because I am afraid of the misstep and the thing I'll get wrong.

 

Dwight Brown: 16:51

There's a lot of fear built around it, and there's a lot, to some extent, to be fearful love. I mean, the psychological safety component of this topic is it's it's oftentimes not there.

 

Minette Norman: 17:02

Yeah, you know, I the other book that I wrote was about psychological safety, and I believe the way I see these two playing together is that I do not think you get to inclusion without a foundation of psychological safety. Because if people do not feel that their voice is welcome, that they can make a mistake, that they can be human, then they are not going to feel that they are heard and valued and respected for who they are. So I see them as sort of there's this foundation of psychological safety, and then inclusion is possible only when you have that.

 

Dwight Brown: 17:34

Right.

 

David Turetsky: 17:34

Do you see through your Meteoric rise in the technology industry, and I'm being serious here. Do you see that your sphere of influence as you rose through your organization? Do you see that that sphere of influence changed how you could be boldly inclusive? Or, do you think that you can be no matter what level you're at?

 

Minette Norman: 17:54

I think it's certainly informed where I'm coming from today, because I do have that history. However, I also think that wherever you are, you can be boldly inclusive. And you know, one of the questions I get a lot when I work with teams is that, well, I care about inclusion and diversity equity, very, very much, and it's really in my heart, but my senior leadership doesn't necessarily embrace this. So I'm realistic like you may not be able to influence your C staff, if they are not open minded. However, even wherever you are in an organization, you can have a positive impact on the people who report to you, even if you're a first line manager, and you can have a positive impact on your peers who you work with day in day out. So yes, you may not be able to change an entire organizational culture, but you still can make a difference in your sphere of influence. And so I never want to discourage everyone, anyone, even if they are just a first line manager, because, in fact, those people have such an impact on the people who work for them!

 

Dwight Brown: 18:53

And I would imagine that sometimes you got to get creative to be able to do that. For example, if I work for a leader that just isn't bought in to the concept, then I, kind of back to that psychological safety, where I may not have the kind of work environment where I can be outwardly more inclusive in things. Whereas if I'm creative, I may find other ways to do that. Is that, would you say that's accurate?

 

Minette Norman: 19:22

Yeah. I mean, I think you know if, let's say you are a manager of a team of eight people, and you report to someone who is not particularly open minded, but with that team of eight people, you can create an environment where every one of those eight people feels they are welcome to the table and that their voices are welcome. You can brainstorm. You can bring in all these innovations within that team of eight. Maybe, possibly, you can share some of that with the next level, and maybe they will recognize that there's some goodness going on in this team. Maybe not, but at least within those eight people, you have made a positive difference in how they are experiencing work day to day.

 

Dwight Brown: 19:59

Mm,hmm.

 

David Turetsky: 20:00

And as they grow through their organization, they'll hopefully take that example with them.

 

Minette Norman: 20:03

Exactly! Because, you know as I said, like I didn't have many good role models, this is what I think leaders need to be doing, is being the role models, so that they are helping raise up the next level of leader and the next level of leader who will change the world of work.

 

Dwight Brown: 20:18

Right.

 

David Turetsky: 20:19

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary com/HRDLConsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. So let's go to question three, which is going to be talking a little bit about some of the things we've already discussed. Which is, what are the biggest challenges you see in getting organizations to be able to embrace inclusive leadership as it should be a business imperative?

 

Minette Norman: 21:00

Well, I think there's, you know, there's so much data, and data doesn't always work but, but if you want, a lot of organizations need data to show that if I invest in this, there's going to be some payoff.

 

David Turetsky: 21:11

Tell me the ROI!

 

Minette Norman: 21:13

Right, tell me the ROI. And the ROI, I mean, there is, there is lots of

 

Dwight Brown: 21:14

Yeah. data to show that organizations that have a higher level of diversity and an inclusive culture have better innovation, they have better financial performance, and they have more engaged, motivated employees and better employee retention. There's tons of data to back that up, and some people will be moved by that data, and some won't. But of course, when you need the ROI, I'm happy to share all the stats with you. I think also, though you can't look at it just from a data perspective, I think you also have to look at this is, you know, this is front of mind for people now, is like, what is the employee experience like? How are you going to attract talent today, when, especially the newer workers, the younger generations, are demanding empathetic leadership, inclusive cultures, they're not going to go to a company that has a bad reputation, right? And so you cannot rest on your laurels, because the workforce is different now. And so I think that's another thing to think about is that, who do you want to attract and retain? And if it's people who care about this, well, then you better focus on it. Do you anticipate we're going to see a shift and a change is the new let's just say the new college grads are coming in with a whole different focus. Do you are you hopeful for change for the long term with that, or do you think that's not going to have an impact unless we're doing something different?

 

Minette Norman: 22:36

I am hopeful because I do think that, you know, even when I speak to my nieces and nephews and people who are of that generation, they are demanding something different and expecting something different. But I also think we need to be very intentional about who do we you know, this is, this is one big part of my book, is like we have to get away from this affinity bias that everyone who we feel comfortable with are the people we surround ourselves with. So if I look at the tech industry, which I know best, and you see, you know, predominantly white male leaders who promote and reward and, you know, give great assignments to more white males in the organization, then nothing's going to change. And so we have to get out of that. We have to deliberately look for people who challenge us, who are different from us, who have different backgrounds, whether it's gender or race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or identity, all of those ways we're different. We have to be deliberate, because if we aren't, we're going to just keep perpetuating the same demographics where, yeah, you'll bring in more diverse employees at a lower level, but they will not rise to the most senior ranks of leadership, and we still see that today. So that's where I think we have to be very intentional in not just our cultures and behaviors, but our systems of, how do we hire, how do we promote, how do we reward? Because I remember being in discussions with like, oh, yeah, that guy has great potential. And, you know, this woman is a little bit too aggressive, right? You know those biased conversations, why someone got promoted, or someone got the plum stretch assignment and someone didn't, and so those are the ways we very much have to challenge our, of course, it's our innate human thinking. This bias is just ingrained in all of us, so we have to be aware of it, and we have to challenge it. But I am optimistic, because I do see that people are saying, no more this. I'm not going to put up with a culture that is not inclusive and is not open minded.

 

Dwight Brown: 24:28

Makes sense.

 

David Turetsky: 24:29

The changing demographics of the US, and because this is mostly a US program, the podcast is mainly US. You know, we've seen the changing of demographics very, very dramatically, and how the predominant groupings of people, especially ethnicities, are going to become much more Latina, Latino, or Latinx, however you want to describe it. So we're going to see the change in the workforce, not just in a very small way, but in a very big way, as the next generations start to take over for the baby boomers, and that should help, shouldn't it? Or are we just going to get different cultures that come in with their biases, unless we actually continue to have the inclusivity as being a focus?

 

Minette Norman: 25:19

I don't think it happens magically, just by changing demographics and this is part of, again, our biology is that, because we're drawn to people like us, you know, you bring in a whole new demographic. Let's say it's Latinx, Black, Asian, whatever it is, we are most comfortable with people from our tribe. That is just our, our innate bias. So we, I think every single one of us, no matter what our background and ethnicity is, has to challenge ourselves to not surround ourselves with people who look, behave, act, think just like us. So that's why we do have to be deliberate about it. It doesn't happen automatically. And one of the things that people often think is that if I hire a diverse team, everything will magically be better. You know, it's actually no. I mean, first of all, it's harder to work with a diverse group of people, so you have to deliberately create the culture where everyone can fully participate. And then, you know, if you have this homogeneous group, how do you get out of it? So there's a there's a lot of complexity. I do think it's all possible, and we have to be really intentional and deliberate about how we create these these workplaces and cultures, and that's why I wrote the book!

 

David Turetsky: 26:29

Just to go back though to the question for one second, have you ever been asked to write an ROI for this kind of for creating an inclusive culture?

 

Minette Norman: 26:40

I have not been asked specifically for an ROI, like, if I put in a proposal or if I talk to someone, but I have been asked for, what are the benefits? So maybe you call it an ROI, like, I haven't been asked to quantify it in terms of financials, but, yeah, I have been asked for those, and I'm always willing to provide them. And you know, the thing is, there's, there's lots of I have an Evernote. I use Evernote, and I have just lists of links that I curate, so that if someone says, Can you give me some ROI on inclusion or diversity, whatever, I have statistics at my fingertips, and they're always being updated. And so, yeah, I sometimes have to share those as part of when I'm working with a leadership team or, you know, pitching something to an organization. And I think, you know, some, some people are, I guess I should say some organizations are bought into the idea without needing the ROI, and some are earlier on their journey, and they're like, what's in it for me?

 

Dwight Brown: 27:31

And it's, it's a shame that it really for some organizations, it does come down to just exactly, as you said, What's in it for me? Or the fact that they ask you for an ROI. The ROI is, it's the right thing to do. That's it, end of story.

 

David Turetsky: 27:49

But that's not been a really, that's not really been the mission critical.

 

Dwight Brown: 27:54

Yeah, no, I recognize the absurdity of what I'm saying, but at the same time, there's, it's, yeah.

 

Minette Norman: 28:00

You know, I think it's okay. I think, I mean, you got to meet people where they are, and if they need the ROI, you need the ROI, and at the same time, it's the right thing to do. So I would say it is the moral imperative that we must do this. And here are all the business benefits you're going to get. The two are not mutually exclusive, so let's embrace it all, right?

 

David Turetsky: 28:26

Well, this has been a phenomenal and fascinating discussion, and I think we could talk about this for hours, but what we're going to try and do is fit it into 30 minutes. So Minette, thank you so much. You're awesome! This has been really fun.

 

Minette Norman: 28:41

Thank you so much for having me! I feel like we could talk all day too, and I hope we'll have another opportunity. But yeah, let's

 

David Turetsky: 28:46

We're definitely gonna have to bring you back, because that now, now we're gonna want to talk a little bit about measurement of all these things. And how do you measure?

 

Dwight Brown: 28:53

We are data geeks after all!

 

David Turetsky: 28:55

Yes, we are data geek, so we're gonna want to measure the inclusive leadership and how it impacts the business, but that we'll save that for another episode.

 

Minette Norman: 29:02

Okay, I'll look forward to that.

 

David Turetsky: 29:04

All right. Well, thank you so much Minette. And thank you very much Dwight.

 

Dwight Brown: 29:08

Thank you. Thanks for being with us, Minette!

 

Minette Norman: 29:10

Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 29:11

And thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 29:14

That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week, and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.