Alyssa Dver – How Organizations Benefit From ERGs

Connect with Alyssa:

• 

Connect with David:

• • 

• david.turetsky@salary.com

Connect with Dwight:

• • 

• dwight.brown@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• ERG Leadership Alliance
• American Confidence Institute
• Alyssa's Books
• Alyssa's podcast Real Confidence
• Salary.com Consulting practice
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 8
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 6

• “People who are in employee groups—good employee groups . . . have higher engagement; are more productive; are more satisfied.”
• “If you don’t have thorough buy-in from the top level, don’t bother [building an ERG].”

Announcer: 0:01

The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by salary.com Your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

 

David Turetsky: 0:37

Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky, and as always, we try and find people inside and outside the world of HR to you be the latest on what's happening. Today we're speaking to Alyssa Dver and Alyssa, why don't you give us a little bit of background as to who you are and what you've been doing so far? Wow, that's a lot! And thank you for that

 

Alyssa Dver: 0:55

I appreciate it, David. A former CMO, chief marketing officer, in the corporate world for way too long, still recovering, I founded the American Confidence work. That's really great work. We love ERGs. We've talked about Institute in 2015. That is an organization that studies the brain science of how and why people need belonging and subsequently how it feeds their confidence. And we teach coaches and leaders of all different walks, and speaking of leaders as part of that work, we were doing an immense amount of work for employee resource groups, particularly the leaders and executive sponsors. And so in 2019 I founded the ERG Leadership Alliance, which now supports 25,000 organizations around the world and over 50 million ERG champions. it several times on the podcast, and we we love how it fosters belonging in a company. And I know we're gonna talk a little bit about that today. Yes, please.

 

David Turetsky: 1:57

But you also have published some books, correct?

 

Alyssa Dver: 2:00

Yes, I have eight books at this point.

 

David Turetsky: 2:02

Wow.

 

Alyssa Dver: 2:03

I always say I'm never gonna do another one, and then, you know, oop. So eight books. I've done two TED Talks. I have my own podcast, which is called real confidence and hands in a few 1000 other things too.

 

David Turetsky: 2:15

Wow. So you're a busy person.

 

Alyssa Dver: 2:17

Well, who isn't?

 

David Turetsky: 2:18

Exactly. So what we're going to do is we're going to provide links to all those things in the show notes, so that everybody who's listening and they're going to be impressed by you will want to either buy your books or listen to your podcast, or also be able to find you wherever you are, especially with those two organizations. So we try and do this on every podcast, every episode, and we ask our guests one fun thing that no one knows about you.

 

Alyssa Dver: 2:48

Well,

 

David Turetsky: 2:51

You should have seen the expression on Alyssa's face!

 

Alyssa Dver: 2:55

Which one do you want? I put in in my notes here, I you know, I have I love Wordle and all those things. But after I'm done with those, if there's like, a little nervous energy or idle time, I play another video game, and I'm like, at level 20 something at this point, it's embarrassing. My kids think it's hilarious. And my kids being 21 and 25 like, mom's a gamer.

 

David Turetsky: 3:20

Mom's a gamer. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that. You know, there's a lot of things. I love, card games on the iPhone, but I don't really get to play very often, because, like you, I tend to stay pretty busy so but my kids, they just look at me and they go, Oh, that is just not gaming.

 

Alyssa Dver: 3:37

Yeah. Well, yeah. Anyway, join me in the the online world, and it becomes a little addictive. But you know what? I think there is a time and a place, particularly in the brain science space, for giving your brain that opportunity to just kind of settle down. And that's kind of how I use it, more than than anything.

 

David Turetsky: 3:56

That's awesome. So today's topic is very near and dear to our hearts, as I mentioned before, we really support ERGs and how they foster a place of belonging in organizations. So our topic for today is why and how ERGs are now needed to collect relevant data, and how much of that are they doing, and are they doing it right or wrong? So Alyssa, what's the backstory on ERGs?

 

Alyssa Dver: 4:28

The backstory on EGS is amazing because Xerox is credited with starting them back in 1960s the black men's caucus, as it was called, then developed into what we now know today is employee groups and the 30 40, other names that go by, BRGs, ARGs, IRGs, Affinity Groups, yada yada. And for the large part of that time between then and now, they went under their radar. And you know, I was presenting to so many groups, and I kept saying, like, tell me about these groups. What are they about? Why do they exist, and the inconsistencies, not just across company to company, but within a company, between one group and the other. I was like, There's something strange, like, Why are these so dysfunctional, quite frankly. And so I went to top HR, people like CHRO level at Fortune 500 and really smart people. And I was like, What's going on with these? And I always hear phrases like food flag and fun, right? That's what they are. Or, you know, wine and cheese social. Why would you bother they are just clubs. And I'm like, no, they're they're not just clubs, or they shouldn't just be clubs. And because I have a business background, because maybe I really do believe in being a success equalizer. I was like, these are groups that could really be powerful for the employees. And quite honestly, I saw a really good opportunity for companies that would take them seriously. So David, you know, I don't really believe in lucky to be honest, but I think I was really lucky with the timing, because then, you know, we started this thing. I actually went to some friends at State Street and some of the other big, known ERGs. And I was like, Would you be on my board of advisors? And let's start this. We ran a conference july 2019, downtown Boston, and had 100 people show up and pay to be there, and we just did our eighth event. Our big conference was about two weeks ago. And like I said, we've got 25,000 organizations now globally, 45 trainers around the world. I mean, it's not food, flags, and fun anymore, that's for sure.

 

David Turetsky: 6:35

Well, could it have started that way? I mean, could the original intent have been to kind of transition from maybe a once a year Christmas party to having more social events for employees. I know you talked about the the original, like real BRG for Xerox, but did it become something of a social thing first, and then it started to get into more affinity groups? Well,

 

Alyssa Dver: 7:00

you know, historically speaking, again, black men's caucus, it was really a political, social activism effort. And they've always kind of straddled that line between giving employees a voice into decision making, into their, you know, needs for the the employees of that type. And again, like most people think about ERGs in a diversity sense, and for better or for worse, we can certainly dive into this too, with the D word now being a little bit controversial, as organizations have been moving away from that, the ERGs are getting stronger and more important because they really do support employee experience. And so, yeah, I think it's there is this absolute social element, of course, the need to belong Maslow and subsequent brain science. But there's also this urgency for not only employees' voices to be heard, for the employee's sake, but the companies want to hear, hey, what markets should we be serving? Are we serving customers like you in the best ways? Are there benefits that we should have or not have? You know, there's all kinds of applications here now that the employee group voices are not only wanting to be heard, they need to be heard in order to make sure that companies operating optimally.

 

David Turetsky: 8:15

So is that the real ROI here? Is that the ability for leadership to be able to get feedback from employees? Or is there something bigger than that?

 

Alyssa Dver: 8:25

Well, yeah, when you say real ROI, sure,

 

David Turetsky: 8:25

Well, I mean, the reason why I'm coming at it absolutely right, a little maybe hard to measure in that context. You know, we, we kind of look at engagement in the HR space, from an ROI perspective is even to get it off the ground. We right, as this important metric? And I make the argument that it know HR programs are always asked, what's the ROI to do is an important metric to HR people, but to a CFO, that is not the real ROI. Now we know that people who are in employee groups, good employee groups, in other words, well organized, funded, supported, have higher engagements, more significantly. We know that we see that, we have the data. We know that they're more productive. We know that they leverage, you know, they're more satisfied, and therefore the satisfaction metrics from good places to work and others say that they are contributing to profit. I think that the real ROI depends on who you're talking to, but absolutely like, what's the cost of making a bad decision or missing a market opportunity? You know, whether you look at an employee group for that ROI, or you just look at your product management group, right? this? And to get it off the ground, to start in a place that has traditionally, not culturally, kind of been more employee friendly, or looked for employee voices. There would need to be that ROI that you'd go to the CFO with and said, you know, we want to invest real money in being able to create employee resource groups so that we can. Dot, dot, dot.

 

Alyssa Dver: 10:01

Yeah, absolutely. You know, again, there's lots of data now, finally surfacing last year, Great Place to Work again, quoting their their reports called Untapped Energy, the Potential of ERGs. I mean, they measure the innovation, the speed of innovation, and clearly said that ERG members are, you know, 10 to two more innovative. You know, they talk about not just engagement, but the involvement in the organization when it comes to, you know, just making it a great place to work, like talking about it and contributing to it. So those are all things that, again, a real ROI, yeah, now the cost to spin them up it that's a very big variable, right? And, you know, is there real cost? Depends! It depends on how you want to do it, how fast you want to do it. There was a lot of mistakes made after, you know, George Floyd and subsequent covid and all the things that have happened that actually helped the ERGs come faster stronger, which I think is a good thing, and maybe the silver lining in all of it. But needless to say, we had a lot of people doing a lot of knee jerk reactions, hiring people that didn't have the training, that didn't have the knowledge, didn't have the experience, particularly with employee groups. So we had a lot of false starts. And so today, we're seeing a lot of regrouping, a lot of recasting, and part of that may be not just because people are like, Hey, these are important. We got to do them right finally, and we have lots of training and all kinds of support, at least at ELA and other places. But you're also seeing, of course, the diversity groups being kind of reimagined. We'll use that as a positive.

 

David Turetsky: 11:42

Right, reimagined because of what we were talking about before, around the context of diversity in the organization.

 

Alyssa Dver: 11:49

Yeah, you know, I mean, let's just, let's, let's call it out, because you and I are these kind of people, right? Like, we're just going to call this out. Like it it stinks, like it breaks my heart to think that there's such uproar over over this diversity need. There is a need. Hello, people. There is a need. There's an urgency around it. But at the end of the day, it's a word. So the work that at least we're seeing and getting done in the ERGs for the sake of diversity, but also for the sake of every employee that really needs to feel that they're more connected, that has not stopped, that's accelerated.

 

David Turetsky: 12:26

I think you may have mentioned this before, but it's not just about the performance of the people who are in it. It's also really about the mental health of the people who are in it, the feeling of belonging. And there are lots of these organizations that they thrive because the people in them feel a deeper connection to the organization, whereas they may have felt underrepresented, they may have felt disenfranchised, they may have felt not listened to, this gives them that opportunity to have their voices heard, To feel more a part of a decision making process. To your point, because we're now asking them questions directly in the environment where they feel comfortable in ways in which shouldn't. I'm going to use the word shouldn't. Shouldn't have ramifications of you know, this is a safe space. This is a place you can be yourself. This is a place where there's people around you who are just like you and who are feeling the same way. So I can ask you an honest question and hopefully get an honest answer. Isn't that even more important today than it ever has been because of this environment?

 

Alyssa Dver: 13:33

Oh, gosh, yeah, of course. And again, I want to remind people, you know, we're not just talking about Black, Hispanic, underserved populations. We're talking about young professionals, neurodiverse we're talking about hobby groups and even religious groups. And so, yeah, that psychological safety is fundamental to the way our brains have to operate in the optimal way. And so you want to get innovation? You got to have a clean brain. You know, don't just play online video games, but you got to give people the opportunity to really feel comfortable. One of the arguments that has been lingering forever in this space is, you know, what's the role of allies? And I think this is really an important thing. Like we all want to feel like, oh, there's allies out there. It's great. But when, when there's a need for that safe place, you need to have allies put aside. You need to have that safe place for that. Those members, you know, I'll give a perfect example, I think. And I say, perfect. I gotta take that back. It's not perfect. Just happens to be the example that always jumps to my brain. During the George Floyd, right after it happened, a lot of the Black groups were calling us. We would have got a lot of conversations with how can we support you? And the one thing they kept saying over and over is, can you tell everybody else to just go away for a while, while we process this together like we don't want to have to educate you about black people. Go, go read a book. You know this. It's not our problem right now. What our problem is we need to come together as a community and process this together without this additional overhead. And you know, I think that's part of the equation too, David, is we want people to feel connected and belonging, but sometimes it can be really hard if you're not of that like type, to create that psychological safety. So these groups, you know, they don't assume that your manager necessarily understands you. It doesn't assume that the HR people are responsible for your professional development. It's a way to come together and say, hey, you know, I want to go with people who are like me and figure out how to make the best of myself and the work environment with, you know, with the the opportunities that are there.

 

David Turetsky: 15:34

And I think you said this very clearly, though, in a safe space right where, you know, we can be together. Let's either heal together. Let's be together. Let's talk about these things in a way in which we don't have to explain it to anybody else, because they're not going through it .

 

Alyssa Dver: 15:49

Exactly. Now, forget for a second the crisis situations, the everyday situations. Today, you kind of hinted at it. We're remote. We barely see each other the office. Even when we're in the office, we may not even know who sits next to us, like, literally, because they're on a different schedule, or we have our earbuds in and we're not. You know, my nephew, who is 21 years old, is working at a very big high tech company, and I was joking with him, he listens all day long. He's an engineer. He's on his earbuds. I'm like, do you know anybody outside of your immediate team? He's like, No. I was like, what, you know, they bring lunch in and all that. They have all these activities and things to get people together. But we just don't. We've changed the way we are. Did we get spoiled during covid in a way that we're like, we don't need other people? I don't know.

 

David Turetsky: 16:39

Yeah. But there are different there were different ways to get together. Like we do those too, we do virtual water

 

Alyssa Dver: 16:43

Absolutely! coolers. We have virtual events. We did a virtual pride and Juneteenth event not too long ago, and that really did bring a lot of people together. We learned a lot, plus we had fun. We also learned about the people who are on the call about how much they knew and didn't know about certain things, not going to tell names, but, but it was, it was a great way of getting together, but it's a new way of getting together because of the environment. But you made it happen, right? You did it. And I think that's, that's the real issue, is that managers, senior leaders, they're so they're doing their thing. They're, you know, they're not going to say, Hey, young professionals, let's get you together and chat, right? So the employee groups become that go to, you know, counselor, if you will, that organizes those opportunities and really facilitates those things

 

Announcer: 17:32

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David Turetsky: 17:43

So let's switch gears a little bit and talk about, well, what's the future of ERGs? Look in the crystal

 

Alyssa Dver: 17:53

Yeah, well, you know, I did write about many of ball! the things that I'm seeing in the future. You know, coming, already starting to percolate. And, you know, I tend to be a little prophetic in this, and sometimes I think I don't know if I've created the future or the future is just obvious, right? Well. So there are several things that we're

 

David Turetsky: 18:09

It is possible, right? starting to see. I think these are really early things. But in the idea of HR, shared services, which has been around for a while, I think we're going to start to see, we should see ERG shared services, because it's so ridiculous. If you think about it, you ask an ERG leader who has a full time job already, this is a volunteer role. They're not getting paid. You know, to be an event planner, to be a email expert, a marketing expert, all these different hats they have to wear as part of this. It's ridiculous. So if we can have a shared service opportunity where all the ERGs in that organization can be like, hey, we want to run an event. Can you help us organize Well, it becomes much more expensive if you're it? And there's somebody that can help do that. So I think that's a big that will make a huge difference. And I think, you know, the companies that are jumping on that are going to really see the the ROI there, we are seeing things like outside funding all of a sudden, like so ERGs, by definition, differ than clubs, because they get funding and accountability from the mothership, right and outside funding, you know, organizations that want to get maybe a particular group's perspective, or a loyal ship loyalty, you know, those are things that are really interesting. Now, they raise a whole bunch of questions, you know, of equity and other things. But, you know, I think it's an interesting model. If you know, a particular brand wants to go and fund an event, why not? Right, provide swag, whatever it is, we're seeing a lot of subgrouping, and I can't believe this has not happened sooner. You know, you have a group like the Asian group, or whatever name, because there's all different Asian, Pacific and, you know, all different versions. But you know, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, they're all different, very different. So we're seeing subgrouping. So that care. Givers taking care of little kids versus taking care of parents. I mean, there's nothing even remotely similar to that. So we're seeing subgroups, although those subgroups still tend to roll up to the top. But, you know, it's an interesting it's an interesting management challenge when you start subgrouping. managing 20 groups instead of the 10 roll up groups. So then you might want to get sponsorships from Amazon and from, you know, Best Buy, or whomever the retailer du jour, or company du jour is to be able to sponsor those groups. And as you say, not only get loyalty, but get some affinity to those groups.

 

Alyssa Dver: 20:37

Yeah, absolutely, you know. I'll throw in one other interesting trend that, again, is kind of an early trend. So I consider for the future, along have been the groups like prospanica and alpha and other groups that I would consider cross organizational ERGs, right? They are independent, and people who are members are from all different organizations. And we're seeing kind of a re blossom of that, as well as cross organizational programs. And again, these were something that I did years ago. I was a participant where multiple organizations might pull together a particular event. But this is another way of pooling resources as well as increasing your geographical connection, right? So if you're in a particular industry, and let's say you're in the women's group and one of them, and then all of a sudden, you're in an event, and there's five or six other companies of your area there, that's a really big, wonderful benefit for those members. So we're seeing some of that happening again, too.

 

David Turetsky: 21:37

But Alyssa, can I ask a specific question about that, wouldn't you think, because inside an ERG inside a company, there's some safety, right? We're not worried about privacy issues, somewhat. We're not worried about privacy. We're not worried about any intellectual property. We're not worried about people poaching. We're all within the same company. Now, when you start to open it up to other enterprises, other companies. Don't you start worrying about, you know, could my intellectual property bleed? Could I lose people, you know, wouldn't there be that kind of, because we don't have the firewall in that case. Now, we're kind of reaching past that.

 

Alyssa Dver: 22:15

Well, we're not talking about, like, ongoing meetings like that. We're talking well, with the cross organizational Yeah, sure, like a prospanic, of course, but you know what? We all go to conferences. We all have neighbors, we talk to each other, so the same rules would have to apply. But you know, this cross programming is usually something like they're having, you know, the ones that I participate in the past, where the women's organizations, where they're, you know, they're inviting women speakers and stuff. So it really is more like a conference or an event in the ERG vernacular. We call that a program. But even mentorship programs, I have a very good friend who runs a wonderful mentorship company, and the mentors are from all other different companies. So, you know, I think we have to not only trust employees, but you know, in the context of their own career and their own needs. You know, there's not the firewall is, I don't think it's really applicable.

 

David Turetsky: 23:06

Well, yeah, and to the extent of which, and you're absolutely right, to the extent of which, we go to SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management, or World at Work, which is for compensation and benefits professionals, or are there other conferences? So there is that kind of, you know you have to stay within your own you don't breach your own firewall, but, but you can. You're meeting all the people that are in your space, and you're gathering information, you're gathering experience, you're listening to other speakers. So I totally get you there. So that's a really great way of being able to think past the that, that objection. And I guess the question is, do we see these kind of taking on more of that social aspect, like, and I know this is going to sound funny, like a sorority or fraternity, where, you know, we're all of the same stripe, we're all kind of in that group, and so we kind of start building those bonds of that group. You mentioned a couple specifically. Do we then wear the shirt? Do we then wear the pride of being part of that group as well as not only being part of our own organization?

 

Alyssa Dver: 24:10

Well, yes and no, of course, right? So yes, there's you know, shirts already out there that people you know will be donning for their particular event. But let's not forget, we're all intersectional, right? So, you know, you may be a black woman and want to have affinity with both those groups, so I form multiple groups, right? And or be an ally with multiple groups. So showing that alignment, I think, is, yeah, we all going to want to kind of demonstrate that. But do we wear a shirt that has our unique thing? You know, one of the things that we talked about, we had our conferences recently. We have two conferences, one for oversight managers, the DEI professionals, and one for members. And we invited people to, kind of like, adorn their name tags in a way that represented them the best. And, of course. Everyone's unique, right? So I, you know, there's a lot of paradox in this space, and it's one of the reasons I find it so fascinating. But as much as we want to be affiliated, as, you know, aligned with a group, we also want to respect each other's uniquenesses. And so I don't know the right answer or the actual answer, David, but I hope that we respect that not everybody has to be the same to still be be aligned.

 

David Turetsky: 25:25

Absolutely, absolutely. That sounds, it's perfect answer. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. So let's get to question three, because I think this is a really great one for the people who are out there who are saying, well, we don't have an ERG at our company, so what can we do? Where do we go to find the resources to be able to help us build or manage ERGs internally?

 

Alyssa Dver: 26:10

Well, the first thing you have to decide you're going to do it, and the reason I say that is because if you don't have thorough buy in to the top level, don't even bother, right? Don't build them unless the company, the organization, and we, you know, I say company, we have governments and nonprofits and universities, all different kinds, and some of them are as small as 30 employees. So the size and the type doesn't matter. We have large companies that just started. Like, I always go, what? Right? They just started. So never use that we haven't done it yet as an excuse. But the excuse that you should use to before you do anything is, if you don't have senior management saying, yes, we want to do this and we will support them, don't bother. It's going to be an uphill battle once that is bought in. The first thing to do is really sit down and think about your policies and on our website. I know you're going to give links the ERG Leadership alliance.com page has a copy of the book, ERG intelligence. That's the last one I wrote. The eighth one. It's a very thin, skinny book. It tells you everything about ERGs. But at the back of the book is an appendix to write a policy guide. You can call it whatever you want. This is where you got to start, because otherwise you don't have the answers to things that could open you up to liability, right? And, you know, it like an HR guide. You got to have some rules. It ensures equity, but it also keeps you as the HR manager or DEI professional, in a place where you can not have risk.

 

David Turetsky: 27:39

and I totally love, where are you going without, you know, Senior Management buy in means that you'll be able to build the type of ERG that your culture supports and that the leadership supports, and then building that policy, and then getting it blessed by leadership, by the way, is the right way of starting there, because if you don't get their blessing, then you know, bad things can happen with that. We've all seen it. We've all seen it with other HR processes or programs or policies. They need to completely buy in. And potentially, I think you may have said this, but if not, I apologize. But I think you said that some senior managers, you want them to actually participate and be visible, and sometimes you don't, right?

 

Alyssa Dver: 28:30

That's true. Yeah. So the success of an ERG really hinges on not just the overall culture and the top level people saying this is important, we're going to do it, but having executive sponsors for each group, and there's always a question, do you need an executive sponsor that looks like has the same affinity as the group it's sponsoring? And the answer is, no, it would be awesome. It certainly raises a flag to say, why don't we have people like that at the senior level? But there is a skill set those executives a skill set and a set of visibility that that executive has, that they bring to the table, that those ERG leaders and members don't have. So as long as there's honest and transparency about hey, you know, and I'm not the same kind of demographic you are, but I want to help, and this is why, and this is what I can bring to the table, and this is what I would like to to learn from you, and this is what I think you can learn from me. Then they work beautifully. But it does, you know, it certainly raises a flag like, Why aren't there people like these numbers at the top level?

 

David Turetsky: 29:34

I have to tell you, when I was at ADP, we had very strong executive leadership team from the executive ELT from the top level. So the CFO was part of the LGBTQ affinity group, the leaders on the ELT, multiple of them that were female, were on the the empowering women affinity group. So we had lots of great representation. Hmm, oh, the Latinx group was led by Carlos Rodriguez at the time our CEO. And so it was. It always looked good, because not only did they say they were a part of it, but they actually attended and then participated. And it made you feel comfortable. If you were going to those things, you could run into Carlos or Maria or Debbie or whomever. The the ELT member was that, you know, represented, and it was, it was wonderful to be able to not only rub elbows, but talk to, you know, a lot of the leadership across the different businesses, and be able to learn about them.

 

Alyssa Dver: 30:36

Yeah, it's in and of itself it's a great reason why people join and lead ERGs is to get that ability to meet people they normally wouldn't. Now, with that said, we still have the frozen middle right, and even with the CEO showing up at an event, doesn't mean that the middle managers are so one of the big pushes right now is, how do you get those managers to be okay with giving David, if he's the leader of a particular group, time to do that work right with, you know, without demanding, hey, I want every second of your life, right and, and that's been a challenge. I won't lie to you, the remote issue that you you brought up before having people who are remote part time, factory workers, frontline workers, you know, should we they're on an hourly wage in a lot of cases, should we give them that hour to come to an erg meeting or program? There's a lot of issues that still haven't been wrestled with. You know, compensation overall still hot potato. But, you know, needless to say, there are some really good reasons to be an ERG leader, beyond getting a bonus spot or, you know.

 

David Turetsky: 31:44

But you also mentioned before, when we were talking about the setup of the groups and the setup of the programs that if you didn't have executive leadership buy in, and that included the policies that created the ERGs, then those issues, especially when it comes to hourly workers being a part of it. You know, we know hourly workers get training. We know, hourly workers get paid for things that don't come, you know, become a product. So this to me, and I'd love your opinion on this, isn't this that that investment in that person to allow them to do these things, maybe not on a daily basis, but at least on a regular basis, have that time to be able to heal, grow, learn?

 

Alyssa Dver: 32:22

100%

 

David Turetsky: 32:23

Well, I think we can drop the mic and leave it there!

 

Alyssa Dver: 32:28

Yeah. I mean, yes, look, there's the right thing to do, or the thing that makes rational sense, and then there's a reality, right?

 

David Turetsky: 32:35

Yeah, of course.

 

Alyssa Dver: 32:36

And you know, I think one of the again, I mentioned, there's a lot of paradox in this whole space, and when we treat people well, when we make them feel that they're part of the work family, when we make them realize that they are a valued asset and we invest in them, sure you are going to get a return. But again, right back to the beginning of the pod. You know, how do you show that and prove that we're just now getting data. I mean, the academics, they're slow on the take. They're just now producing research that's showing the benefits. And there's only, you know, there's just not a lot of it. There's not a lot of data out there. We collect a lot of data as part of the Alliance because we have the opportunity to. But needless to say, it's still a lot of the HR type of data, the engagement studies. And you know, how many people are attending meetings. And I always say to folks, you know, please get the qualitative data, get the the bits that say, you know, this person got a promotion, or this person decided not to take a job offer that they you know, otherwise would have left. So we're getting there. We are getting there, but it's been a long time coming, right?

 

David Turetsky: 33:41

No, yeah, but, but let me ask you a stupid question around the measurement, which is, ERGs are supposed to be kind of a protected space, right? So are we collecting membership? Thus, when you go to do your turnover analysis, you really can't say, well, they belong to an ERG and so they left, or they they were part of a group that left, or we see that ERG members have a lower attrition rate than non ERG members. We can't do that, right?

 

Alyssa Dver: 34:08

Well, you can and you can, and it really, again, depends on the company and the location. In an engagement study, that's anonymous which is what most of them do. They do put a question now I should say most, a lot, are doing it, Are you a member of one or more ERGs? So they can compare members versus non members in an anonymous way. There's other tools out there that, again, will do it anonymously, but you know, probably better than anyone, that HR data can be very faulty in terms of demographics. It could be illegal, like we mentioned, in certain geographic areas. And then there's the ERG member types. You know, if you're LGBT and you're not ready to come out, you're not going to sign up for the mailing list, but more, maybe use an alias, or whatever it might be. So it's hard to measure. We've heard time and time again from neuro diverse populations that they want to use the information that that group's providing, but they don't really want be identified as and I say they don't, they may not want so.

 

David Turetsky: 35:04

Well, it's a HIPAA violation if they get recorded as being part of that group, and then they get passed over for a promotion as well. I mean, that may lead to terrible outcomes. That's why I'm saying in your HRIS, you're not going to capture that these people are part of those particular ERGs because bad, bad, bad. I mean, that's a bad Big Brother.

 

Alyssa Dver: 35:24

But, you know, there's other data points, like I said, engagement and, you know, kind of impact related statements that we can certainly capture. But yeah, it's always going to have that question. And, you know, HR people, for what it's worth, a little protective of their data too. So, so it can be just, it can just be a very hard thing to even try and get that. And then when you get it, you're going to realize that it's not particularly telling.

 

David Turetsky: 35:57

I could talk about this part of the conversation all day. But Alyssa, I want to be respectful of your time and of our listeners. Thank you so much for being on. I'm gonna have to ask you back. You're such an awesome guest.

 

Alyssa Dver: 36:09

Oh my goodness, thank you so much! I'm so grateful.

 

David Turetsky: 36:11

Well, there are so many things we'd also couldn't cover here. I mean, you know, going going beyond just the measurement part and going to impact and other things. There's a lot of other things to talk about. And, you know, we could probably fill another whole episode on, you know, not just the future of ERGs, which we tried covering today, and we probably did, did a pretty good job, but there's a lot of other things. So if you don't mind, I will invite you back.

 

Alyssa Dver: 36:34

Oh, I'd be honored. Thank you so much. And as long as we can talk a little brain science, I'm there any day.

 

David Turetsky: 36:40

Absolutely would love to, because I think one of the things that you were getting at, which was the neurodivergent people and those populations really getting a part of something and how it helps them, and how it helps their not just their feelings, but their brain chemistry. So I'd love to talk about that, but not today. Thank you so much.

 

Alyssa Dver: 36:59

Thank you!

 

David Turetsky: 37:00

And thank you all for listening, take care and stay safe.

 

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