Tracie Sponenberg & Adriana DiNenno – HR Tech 2024 – Paper to AI: Navigating the HR Tech Revolution with Industry Experts

Connect with Tracie:

• 

Connect with Adriana:

• 

Connect with David:

• • 

• david.turetsky@salary.com

Connect with Dwight:

• • 

• dwight.brown@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Tracie’s website
• Salary.com Consulting practice
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 14
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 12

• “I found, in healthcare, within my own data set . . . that [job] seekers are more likely to view [job postings] and apply when the compensation and salary are listed.”

Announcer: 0:01

The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by Salary.com, your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

 

David Turetsky: 0:39
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host David Turetsky, we have two exciting episodes for you in one coming to you live from the 2024 HR Technology conference in Las Vegas, Nevada. We have two very special guests, Tracie Sponenberg, fractional CPO and a good friend. And Adriana DiNenno a very good friend of the podcast, and she's from health ecareers. These are two complimentary podcasts, so hopefully you'll enjoy them. Please listen and let us know! Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host David Turetsky and we're here live at the 2024 HR Technology Conference in the beautiful Mandalay Bay exposition center in Las Vegas, Nevada. And I'm here with Tracie Sponenberg. Tracie, how are you?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 1:35
I'm good David! It's good to meet you. I don't think we've ever met in person, right?

 

David Turetsky: 1:39
No, no, this is really cool. Well, I saw you from afar yesterday.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 1:43
You mentioned that actually, yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 1:44
But you were surrounded by people, and you were interacting, and it's really rude to go, oh, but it's David Turetsky from the HR Data Labs, hello!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 1:52
No, you totally should have!

 

David Turetsky: 1:53
No, my ego is not that big!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 1:56
But I recognized you!

 

David Turetsky: 1:59
Well, yeah, I don't have as much hair as I

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:01
You know, none of us do. used to.

 

David Turetsky: 2:04
Yours looks better than mine!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:05
Well, it's, it's been a rough night. It was a rough, not a rough night.

 

David Turetsky: 2:09
Wow!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:09
No, no. I came in with, like, my hair all done.

 

David Turetsky: 2:11
What story is that?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:12
No, I got up at four in the morning, had my hair done the day before. Today, I was, like, decided to just redo it. And like, now I'm having a hair crisis, but that's all right, thankfully we're not recording video!

 

David Turetsky: 2:22
No, her hair looks wonderful, just to let you know. Well, we're gonna take a selfie later. So

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:26
Okay,

 

David Turetsky: 2:27
there you go.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:27
We'll do that.

 

David Turetsky: 2:28
So Tracie, will we do this for with every guest we have. What's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:34
Yeah, one fun thing that no one knows about me? Oh, well, I guess it's fun. I used to be a cheerleader, and I'm not, when I was younger. I'm not very coordinated, athletic in any way, shape or form, and that's, I guess, surprising. Nobody really knows that now.

 

David Turetsky: 2:53
Okay,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:53
I would have said the tattoos, but now everybody knows I have a bunch of tattoos.

 

David Turetsky: 2:57
I see the one on your arm. I see at least two on your arm.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 2:59
I have two, then I have one another one you can't see, and then.

 

David Turetsky: 3:01
Okay, I'm not going there. No, no, this is an HR podcast. Okay, no, so we're here at HR Technology, and we're gonna actually talk HR technology!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 3:10
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 3:11
So the first question is, how has HR tech evolved and transformed?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 3:17
So I've been doing this for a long time. So it was 30 years, right? And so when I first

 

David Turetsky: 3:24
So in grade school you were?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 3:25
I was like four, when I started in the business, yeah, I was four, and I was just a prodigy. And

 

David Turetsky: 3:33
There you go!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 3:34
I started with a large global company, and I remember there really wasn't HR tech to speak of, somehow we paid people, that wasn't really my area, but it was a big. I was in talent acquisition mostly, but I remember, like, just even getting email. I mean, that's how long it was, like, just the very beginnings, and then the bones of HR tech, and then going to the first job where I was leading it. And we actually had a system! We had a system that I thought was just amazing. And looking back with 2024, eyes, I'm sure I would look and go, What the heck is that? And you know, I've been doing this long enough where I follow the evolution of the capabilities of what HR tech can do from just really when I started, it was like, pay people. Like, just get people paid, right? And then it became so, so much more. And now with AI, there's really nothing HR tech can't do. It's such an incredible tool for all organizations, all teams.

 

David Turetsky: 4:36
So a sense of what you're saying is it's gone from being very administrative and it's kind of transformed to kind of say your HR team can be what it needs to be, and is and can evolve by leveraging the technologies available to it.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 4:52
Much more eloquently said, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Not enough coffee this morning.

 

David Turetsky: 4:57
Well, my job is interpretation and translations.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:00
I love it!

 

David Turetsky: 5:00
So, yeah, well, and, but, but I think I've seen this happen. I've seen this happen in the world of compensation. I've seen it happen in HRIT, the tools around us have changed. Like when I first started, there were HR organizations sharing one computer in the center of the room, right? And everything was still done on paper.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:19
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 5:20
When I was I got my first compensation practitioner job at Morgan Stanley, we did everything by interoffice envelope. And you know those personal, actional, personal, actual action, oh, my god, I can't say it! Personnel action change forms,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:33
yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 5:34
that we send through those very secure manila envelopes,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:37
yeah, oh yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 5:37
with the red threads,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:38
yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 5:38
So, you know the even, but by. Well, we all know that that that form has just transitioned on to technology, but we're still kind of doing the same thing. We're just not using the inner office envelopes anymore.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:52
Well, some places are, which is part of the work that I do is, is help them not do that anymore.

 

David Turetsky: 5:58
Bless you then.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 5:58
My last company that was doing that, right? They were still, were still doing that, and all completely paper based. And I think when, like you and I talk, where we talk to people we know who play in this space, it's surprising to a lot of people. But particularly I work mainly in distribution, and that's... it's not surprising to me when I see entirely paper based people.

 

David Turetsky: 6:21
I tell you, in 2024 I am shocked when I hear, Well, yeah, we have an HRIS, and we do shared services, and a lot of the work that we do is entering change forms into our HRIS.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 6:36
It's not shocking to me. It's like, I immediately go, oh, I can help you. Like what they you just don't know you. They maybe don't know and that's why I've encountered a lot. Like you don't know if you're in that and you've been in that role for 30 years, and you don't come to things like this. You don't know what's available to you.

 

David Turetsky: 6:54
But, but then that means that the organization hasn't evolved to see the benefit that HR can provide in other areas, and they see HR as being administrative!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 7:03
Correct. And that's also what I'm trying to change in the whole industry and beyond, because it's still very much that's that that perception is still very much present, not everywhere! But in a lot of places.

 

David Turetsky: 7:13
Well bless you. And I mean, God bless you. And if there are, if there are organizations that are listening and saying, Well, we do a lot on paper, too. I'm not decrying you, and I'm not telling you you're behind, What, and I think what Tracie's saying is, is that you're not alone.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 7:27
Yeah! Totally not alone. There's no shame. I think that that's the the big thing, like, if you are there, that's where you are, and everybody was at some point, and there's no shame. And if you want or need to move forward, there's lots of great ways that will help not only you and your HR team, but the company, and most importantly, the people of the company.

 

David Turetsky: 7:49
Right. And the vision of what HR can become should be something that you start thinking about as being a how do you evolve your practices and your policies and your technologies? Should help you along the way with that, right?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 8:03
Yep, they're tools. Tools! It's not the end all be all, but they're excellent tools to help.

 

David Turetsky: 8:08
And so let's go onto the next question, which is really one of the more fascinating ones, which is, what do you think of as the latest trend in HR technology that's really helping drive some of these changes? And you know, what should people be on the lookout for in 2025?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 8:23
It is a good question. I'm gonna give, like, the most boring answer, probably, but

 

David Turetsky: 8:28
Probably not true about the most boring.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 8:30
It might be. So, and I don't love the word trends, but like, I think, you know, AI is it was just having this conversation with Theresa Fesinstine, who runs a, basically a training company for HR professionals on AI and still, a lot of HR professionals don't understand it and what it can do. So I think, you know, yes, everybody talks about that being a trend, but it's more than that. If you walk around to all the booths here, it's going to be hard to find, at least in the large companies that aren't, I mean AI has been around for decades, but that aren't using it in some majorly transformative way. And I think we need to keep talking about it in the HR space, particularly in the spaces where people aren't listening, because you're going to get left behind.

 

David Turetsky: 9:20
But the problem, I think, with AI in especially that terminology, is that it means so many different things. It's a catch all phrase to mean that your language process, right, right, right,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 9:31
Right. Generative AI, I do that too, like I tend to do that too, but specifically generative AI.

 

David Turetsky: 9:37
And for those of you who know there's Gemini, there's co pilot, there's, you know, chatGPT 4.0, there's a lot of others.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 9:48
Claude, Perplexity is my favorite. I love that. It's a great research tool. Lot of lot of easy to play and free to start, easy to play around.

 

David Turetsky: 9:57
Well. And one of the fascinating things that I've been talking to people about is that that's a consumer facing,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:03
yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 10:03
that a lot of people are using as their work resources.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:07
That's right.

 

David Turetsky: 10:07
Scary as heck or AF, if you, if you will.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:11
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 10:11
Because every time you type something into those prompts that's actually being held onto by the AI, learning about it, and learning, and they know your IP address.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:23
Yep.

 

David Turetsky: 10:23
They know the company you work for.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:24
Yep.

 

David Turetsky: 10:25
You're basically telling the world what you're researching.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:29
Yeah, yep.

 

David Turetsky: 10:31
Warning, warning.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 10:32
So ethics go hand in hand, right? We should have said that first ethics and AI go hand in hand, and governance and AI that goes hand in hand. And it's, you know, it can be dangerous, but it can be wonderful, and it also doesn't do everything, and it's also kind of stupid, still, and some generative AI specifically, like it's, it's not everything, you know.

 

David Turetsky: 10:51
But I think if I'm an I think I know, if I'm an IT person, and I'm a leader of IT in my organization, I should be probably thinking about how scared I am about these AI bots running amok, well not the bots, but the generative AI running amok in my organization that I don't know about, and I may not ever know, because of the BYOB,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 11:15
yeah, yep,

 

David Turetsky: 11:16
or BYOD, not bring your own beer, bring your own device.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 11:20
Bring your own device. My last company, a lot of companies, at least early on, did you know their solution was just like, block it, block it. Nobody's gonna use it. That's not the solution, you know, because it can be used for some really good, helpful things, and you want people to learn, right and but, and then I had a client that was really early and deep on an AI policy. And that was really,

 

David Turetsky: 11:42
that's great,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 11:42
really putting guard rails around what you can and can't do.

 

David Turetsky: 11:46
And even just creating the policy creates an awareness of, Oh, crap. You shouldn't be doing these things if you are.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 11:52
Right.

 

David Turetsky: 11:53
And if you are, tell your boss about it, or tell IT about it, or whatever the policy is going to be. But to your other point, you're not going to be able to clamp down and have people not use it,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 12:03
Yep.

 

David Turetsky: 12:04
But if you embrace it, and you mentioned the word training before, brilliant, you know, if you can get training for your organization to be able to know how to embrace and what to embrace, and lead them in a direction, I promise you're going to get much more desirable results? If that's the term I want?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 12:21
Right! Right. Not just here you go figure it out, right?

 

David Turetsky: 12:24
Which people are doing on their own. I mean, we've been living in a world of AI because Siri and hey google and Alexa has been around since like 2013.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 12:34
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 12:35
We've been, we've been getting trained. I mean, even like Grammarly or the spell checker in your iPhone or Android, they've been around forever!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 12:43
Right, right. It wasn't till chat GPT that everybody goes, Oh, what's, what's this? And, and it's, it's so excess, generative, AI is so accessible. And I think that that was the huge difference. And it's, there's no going back, really.

 

David Turetsky: 12:59
No.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 13:00
I wish we were further along. I want it to be like, I want a real like, do this for me. And yeah, it kind of does it, but sometimes it's just really awful. So we're not quite there with everything. I want it to do a little bit more of my thinking.

 

David Turetsky: 13:15
Well, it reading your mind, if you're not,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 13:18
Not that far, not that much!

 

David Turetsky: 13:19
If you have that chip implanted by Elon.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 13:21
I know, I don't want to do, I will not be doing that. Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 13:24
Me, neither. Me neither.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 13:26
Too far, too far.

 

David Turetsky: 13:36
So the third question we wanted to talk about was, how important is compensation in kind of the general scheme of where HR technology is and where it will be?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 13:44
You know, I think, well, very important, right? And I think there's been so much, but let me take a step back. When I've been working companies and with clients, one of the biggest headaches is compensation, right? One of the biggest headaches, it's, if you have the budget to hire a comp specialist, they're very hard to find. And expensive, or even simply doing

 

David Turetsky: 14:08
And expensive! a, you know, a salary survey. You do it very expensive, and then you do it again the next year, and you do it again. And there are tools, you know, like, you know, Salary.com has one, because I researched every client, right? There are tools that, what? Thank you for the shameless plug.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 14:26
No, no, seriously. I was doing a project for a client and doing some research and, and there were others, but we won't mention them, but there are tools that are really, really helpful, because it is so, it is so complicated, confusing, and if you care about nothing else in an organization, you should care about pay. You should care about pay equity, and you can, and we now have the technology to help us monitor, to help us, you know, pay people what they should be paid, to help us figure that out, where we should be now, where we should be going. And so I think this is huge. It's probably what I should have said instead of AI, it would have been kind of more fun. But, and it's also something like, it's a growth area for me too. So I was never a comp specialist. I was leading HR. I was doing generalist work, and that was part of it, and so it never, for me, got the time and attention it deserved. And now me working in the capacity I am with clients like being able to have tools is terrific.

 

David Turetsky: 15:30
Yeah, well, and, you know, I'm deep in it, so sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees. And I've been doing comp since I graduated college, and I've always used technology as a differentiator for myself, to do more, to do

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 15:42
Totally! And HR is business, and I've been better, and I never really got how people just didn't use saying this for years, right? Like your people are your technology. I mean, even Excel is, is kind of a very popular business. HR is a business function, and this matters. And technology platform for for compensation. And I guess where I wanted to go is, is that with the regulations that are coming this is before I left corporate. We were talking about the, you out with FLSA change the minimum for exempt status or pay transparency or other things, comp is going to have to start know the pay equity laws coming, and you know in the states that working more across, and pay equity obviously, is going to have to start working across the world of HR and beyond to make we're in. And so it's not just that, nailing that, making sure sure that the ramifications of these policies and these changes really are a business context, instead of just being an HR or that you're doing the right thing by people, and making sure compensation focus

 

David Turetsky: 16:27
Well, it becomes really complex, and it becomes really difficult, and a lot of companies fail at it. that you're not violating the law, then it's educating And what scares me is especially in the realm of

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 16:33
Yeah. pay transparency, because it's so invasive to everything we've everybody. And when you have, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, been doing in the past, we now need to start opening up and 70, different locations, if you're, you know, national, if you're global, how are you going to do that if you don't have a system that helps you with that? I don't know how, how you can! translating all that comp speak, all the HR speak into what's a midpoint progression, who cares? What's a range spread? What's comp ratio? We can go on about that for hours! Educate people, not just managers, but your team, and if they know, if they know it, if they understand it, it's going to be better for everybody. But you know, it's like, like, anything, right? Something was, oh, people don't need to know this. Yes, they do. Don't you want them to be right when they're talking about things, and have the correct information?

 

David Turetsky: 17:56
Well and the problem now with getting the wrong information isn't just someone leaving, because these things are transparent. It's a public relations nightmare!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 18:07
Yeah, yeah, totally.

 

David Turetsky: 18:09
So let me try and ask a bonus question.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 18:12
Okay.

 

David Turetsky: 18:13
Because this is one of my favorites that that we're talking about here at show beyond the hype cycle, where does AI land in the HR stack? Where is its best home, where is its most effective place in the HR stack?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 18:26
So

 

David Turetsky: 18:28
Again, beyond the hype cycle.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 18:30
Beyond the hype. So I like to think of it generative. AI as a like a co pilot, if you will. Right? Like like as a partner. And I think we're seeing that with all kinds of companies here. I'm here with a company called Harriet, which is like the help desk of the future for HR, right? And so I work in the distribution space. I work in the front line space. And you know, if your people can text and answer your question and interact with somebody like it's interacting with a human. And if the company, like Harriet has done the work of stripping out all of the hallucinations or trying to, right? Yeah, that's, that's we were talking yesterday.

 

David Turetsky: 19:11
That's funny actually!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 19:12
Tons of time, kind of working on the hallucination, so you're not getting wrong information, right? And so think of that. Think of the implications of that. And there are other companies that have that integrated, but they work at a smaller space. Like, I do, like, think of the implications of, like, your people having everything they need. Like, what was my paycheck amount last week? What was this? What was, can you send me a, you know, a, not a time slip, but can you send me a pay stub? I've been out of it, I've been out been out of it for nine months. Can you send me a pay stub? Can you do this? Like, what's the how much vacation time do I have? Those little questions that can eat up. And that seems like a really simple thing, but that is super transformative. So I think you know, beyond that hype, just as like, this is here. It's going to be with all of our people in some way, shape or form, and that little thing is going to be really, really transformative.

 

David Turetsky: 20:06
So one of the things that bothers me though about what you just said, not what you said was the data underlying the HR system,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 20:16
Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 20:16
needs to be in such pristine shape. And we know

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 20:21
It's not. That's the and that's we were just, I was having this conversation, like 20 minutes ago. And you know, the good systems like that one, help you figure that out, right? You use AI to help you clean up that data. And you have to have. The data has to be right, or everything's meaningless. And that goes with anything.

 

David Turetsky: 20:40
Is that conversational? Or is it interview based? Or how does someone go through it? Because there's so many touch points and there's so much about a person, it's not like it's just a page or form that has everything about a person on it, and they can update the page when it's an interview, when it's a chat, it's a, Oh, so I understand you have two kids, have your dependents changed?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 21:02
Yep,

 

David Turetsky: 21:03
Have you, you're still married to your spouse or still living with your domestic partner? Have you moved? I mean, you know, basis of where you live is such an important thing for taxation, when and regulations. So all those things are so intertwined!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 21:19
Yep, yep. How do you do it?

 

David Turetsky: 21:21
Where does it start? I mean,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 21:24
I don't know. I mean, no, I mean, yes, so yeah, you have to look at bias, and you have to figure that's a great question. Like, where are you housing that information on, I have two kids, right? Like, particularly at the pre employment stage within the employment. That's, that's, I'm more comfortable with that. But like, if you're talking about from a interview standpoint, like, if something comes up right, like, where are you housing that information? Where does it go? A lot of work, I think, still to be done there. But what do you, what do you do with that? And how do you make decisions based on that? And where does that data go? So that's, I'm still learning.

 

David Turetsky: 22:04
Let me have an example of where this really comes into play. And I had this happen to me twice, one which is I just got divorced for the second time. Yeah, don't come to me for relationship advice.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 22:15
Yeah, we talked about this.

 

David Turetsky: 22:16
Yeah, we had a pre call on this one. But, but seriously though my deductions were wrong, and I had to update my beneficiaries and all that stuff. And I totally, I was so excited about being free that I forgot about all that stuff. Well, that has implications on your benefits. It has implications on your taxation, but then I haven't updated my W4 in for freaking ever. There was a tax change during the Trump administration, which required us to do that.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 22:45
Yes! So confusing, right?

 

David Turetsky: 22:47
Yeah, and then the federal forms updated. So, you know, those are the type of things,

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 22:50
Right? though, that drive people crazy, because when it gets to April, when those things matter, or even November, when we're doing our benefits elections, they're wrong, and we blame HR, but it's not HR's fault. It's not! And I think, you know, that's where some some tools can come in, or the education can come in. In terms of, like, okay, let's, you know, hey, you have questions about this. Here's what it means, and here's a one minute video on that, and here's this, and here's that. And so, you know, my former team did some, you know, education, not advising, but like, here's where you go if you need to know this, because that, yes, HR gets blamed. You know, you do everything again.

 

David Turetsky: 23:33
If the data is wrong HR will always get blamed.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 23:34
Right, right? But you, education, education, training, education, learning, all of that is.

 

David Turetsky: 23:40
I think you're saying education is the key.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 23:41
I am, yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 23:44
But I had a podcast a long time ago now with a couple of brilliant people who were actually using artificial intelligence to find the patterns of incorrect data in the in HR data. And I was like, couldn't we create agents that go do that, that search and destroy?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 24:01
Yeah! Probably, and they're probably

 

David Turetsky: 24:01
Oh, this is one of the, talk about the floor! here somewhere. I mean, if you're not here, you've got an This is one of the largest floors I've seen, and I've been HR tech company, and you're not here, it's surprising that I don't know who isn't here. It's everybody. coming to this show for 20 years. This is one of the

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 24:13
I and I haven't been that long, but I've largest I've ever seen. been for the past seven or eight years, and you definitely the largest I've seen.

 

David Turetsky: 24:27
But, and they're all most of the time, they're doing different pieces, or they're taking on different, you know, tacks, on you know, one thing. Like, there are benefit providers here, but then there's other companies that do not just health and welfare, but they do perquisites. And then there's others that do rewards, and others that do incentives and whatever. It's such a crazy time to be in the HR technology space.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 24:53
Itis. It's fun, though, it's fun!

 

David Turetsky: 24:55
Certainly is.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 24:56
It's really fun.

 

David Turetsky: 24:57
Tracie, is there another conversation? Is there another question you want to take?

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 25:01
I think, I mean, you can keep firing No, no. I think, no, I can talk to you. You know, I could talk to you for a long time.

 

David Turetsky: 25:08
Me too. So why don't we do this? Why don't we end today and then we're going to ask you back on the podcast later on.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 25:14
All right, we'll do that. Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 25:16
Thank you so much, Tracie!

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 25:16
Thank you for having me!

 

David Turetsky: 25:17
And enjoy the rest of the show.

 

Tracie Sponenberg: 25:19
Thanks, you too.

 

David Turetsky: 25:20
Take care and stay safe

 

Announcer: 25:22
Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now back to the show.

 

David Turetsky: 25:33
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky, and we are live from the HR Technology show 2024 at the Mandalay Bay Exhibition Center in Las Vegas. Beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. And I'm here with one of my besties, Adriana DiNenno, you remember her from some of the best podcast episodes HR Data Labs has ever done.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 25:57
Thank you very much!

 

David Turetsky: 26:00
Hey, Adriana, how you doing?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:01
Good thanks. Having fun!

 

David Turetsky: 26:03
I know well, there's a lot of fun to be had here, because there's a lot of really cool stuff going on.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:07
Agreed.

 

David Turetsky: 26:08
And we're going to get into some of that in a minute. But first, what's one fun thing that no one knows about Adriana DiNenno? Because we've uncovered a lot of things about you in the past!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:20
We have covered a lot. You put me on the spot. Can we do it at the end?

 

David Turetsky: 26:27
No, you cannot transition to the topics until you come to this point.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:33
Okay, all right, so

 

David Turetsky: 26:35
By the way, you're not the only person that's ever been stumped with the one fun thing, but, but, but usually someone dredges something up out of the bowels of their mind.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:44
Okay, so it's funny how your mind goes blank

 

David Turetsky: 26:47
totally

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:48
when you have to answer this question. I wrote a book.

 

David Turetsky: 26:53
We know that!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 26:54
I don't know that everyone knows that!

 

David Turetsky: 26:56
Well they do on the podcast, because we've talked about it and I've highlighted your book.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:00
fine, but I'm proud of it.

 

David Turetsky: 27:02
Yeah, we're all proud of it too, but that's not one fun thing that no one knows.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:05
Okay, fine. I ran track. No one would know it, because I can't run anymore. Yes, I have arthritis in my knees, so no one would know I actually and I was very good. I missed districts by two seconds.

 

David Turetsky: 27:21
Two seconds!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:22
Two seconds!

 

David Turetsky: 27:23
Two very long seconds.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:24
So it's actually a good one, because no one would know I'm a runner.

 

David Turetsky: 27:28
All right. Well, I'm a runner now. I started running in my 50s, so yeah, there you go.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:33
I don't run, I walk.

 

David Turetsky: 27:35
That's okay.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:36
So that's my one thing.

 

David Turetsky: 27:38
All right, so now let's talk a little bit about our topics for today.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:41
Okay!

 

David Turetsky: 27:42
We're gonna be touching on recruiting and recruiting technology. And the first question, which is near and dear to your heart and a lot of people hearts that we're gonna talk to, is, how has recruiting, the recruiting practice and recruiting technology evolved, and especially lately?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 27:56
Sure, so you're gonna not be surprised by my

 

David Turetsky: 28:00
Wait. Is it a two letter acronym? response.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 28:03
Yeah, I'm not talking about that.

 

David Turetsky: 28:05
Oh, okay, good!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 28:06
I was gonna tell you I am not talking about AI.

 

David Turetsky: 28:10
Oh, okay.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 28:11
Like, I will not talk about it.

 

David Turetsky: 28:12
Well, you just did.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 28:13
Yeah, we don't talk about Bruno. So anyways, I will not talk about that. I will talk about technology in general. And yes, AI is playing a part in that, but we tend to forget that the rest of technology exists too.

 

David Turetsky: 28:29
Absolutely. Sure does.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 28:31
So I will talk about that, and I'll talk about how technology itself has really changed how fast the recruiters can get through the recruitment funnel and get the seekers quicker, and it's actually changed the expectation of the seeker, because they actually expect things faster. So I don't know if you know this, but according to Forbes, 46% of seekers don't show up for their first interview. And I think what's happening is when you're playing games with a seeker, and you're making them go through five to nine interviews, they don't want any part of it. So technology is making the expectation higher among the seekers, and it's really forcing the recruiter to up their game.

 

David Turetsky: 29:23
So when you say 46% is that the first interview or is that later?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 29:27
The first interview!

 

David Turetsky: 29:28
Wow, that seems like a lot! I mean, especially given the fact that if you get to that stage, it's a miracle these days,

 

Adriana DiNenno: 29:34
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 29:34
If you get that stage that you probably want to carry on with it. No?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 29:38
Yeah, you would think, yeah. Yeah. I read a whole article from Forbes about seekers ghosting employers, not the other way around.

 

David Turetsky: 29:48
You think that that might be because they're using it as a check on their current careers, and just seeing if they can get the interview is satisfaction enough?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 29:57
I think it's a combination of that. But I also think it's high expectations among the seeker and feeling like they deserve more, and if the recruiting process doesn't

 

David Turetsky: 30:08
And when you talk about the recruiting go as they wish, they pull themselves quicker out of it. So process, you're not just talking about the technology piece of the recruiting process? You're

 

Adriana DiNenno: 30:18
I'm talking about a combination.

 

David Turetsky: 30:21
Yeah. So it's really about the how the recruiters, as well as the recruiting technology, treats that candidate throughout that entire experience, from from the actually from the application, or probably from the posting part, all the way through.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 30:34
Yeah, exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 30:36
We're going to touch on some of the things that have kind of changed the entirety of the kind of the requisition as well as the posting, because obviously, with pay transparency, that kind of impacts it. It also impacts who self selects in or out of roles based on their expectations of pay.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 30:58
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 30:59
But we're going to get to that. Let's touch on that. Well, actually, why don't we touch on it now? What's the relationship between recruiting and comp and and how is that changing? Because in the old days, when recruiting called us in compensation, we were like, oh, recruiters are calling us again. They want to know what the you know, the current rate is on pay.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 31:18
It was awful! I remember that.

 

David Turetsky: 31:21
And we were, there was tribal knowledge there, where the comp people were like, I'm not giving this to them. They don't deserve it.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 31:27
Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 31:28
We now live in the world to pay transparencies. How does this really evolve?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 31:31
Yeah, so I actually this is a very timely

 

David Turetsky: 31:31
Yeah.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 31:32
Which is a pretty high conversion rate. And subject for me. I just did research on this, and I found in that means that the seeker's more likely to view the posting healthcare, within my own data set, that 30% conversion rate when the seeker or when the job posting has the salary. and apply with the compensation and the salary listed on the job posting.

 

David Turetsky: 32:05
What's fascinating about that is that and, and I guess the question to you is, is that based on the states that are requiring posting, or is that regardless of state requiring?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 32:16
Yeah, so what's happening is the states and the cities, in some cases the city, are we're we're seeing the legal requirements change around this, and organizations are being hamstringed into including the salary on the posting. And what you're seeing,

 

David Turetsky: 32:35
I like to think of it as encouraged, not hamstinged.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 32:38
And what you're seeing is that if an organization doesn't want to include the salary on the posting, they're being forced to in those certain use cases. But what's happening is the seeker is coming to expect the salary on the posting, and so it's actually, I actually had a client who wasn't getting buy in from the top to put the salary on the posting. And except for the use cases where you have to legally, and their seeker funnel was way less than the rest of the physicians that they were chatting with.

 

David Turetsky: 33:17
Sure, of course.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 33:18
So it really puts them in a situation where it lowers their their pool of candidates.

 

David Turetsky: 33:24
I was talking, I had a presentation last week to a bunch of people in Massachusetts, and obviously Massachusetts now passed a state law requiring transparency. But beyond that, what we're talking about is companies that have multiple state locations that they choose, what we like to call the either the highest common denominator, or, based on your perspective, the lowest common denominator. What's the state that requires the most rigor, or the body that requires it? Could, as you said, municipalities have rules, and as well as the EU has rules.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 33:58
Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 33:58
And so if you operate in multiple jurisdictions, find the one that has the most stringent policy, follow that and you're okay. But to your other point, candidates are now expecting this information. They see it on other posts, and they're like, Wait a minute. Why would I work for you? If I can, if I know what the range is going to be for them.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 34:21
Correct.

 

David Turetsky: 34:22
I'm going to go apply to that one! And and that that's going to put you behind, you know, a really serious competitive disadvantage.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 34:29
Correct, exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 34:31
So is that your advice then to people? Just post, just post the damn range?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 34:36
Yeah, post the range.

 

David Turetsky: 34:38
Okay.So you heard it here first, people. Adriana DiNenno from Health Ecareers says, post the damn range, stop messing around.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 34:47
The statistics prove that your conversion rate will be higher.

 

David Turetsky: 34:51
Well, and transparency is not going away. It's the law in many different jurisdictions.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 34:56
Make sure you follow the laws or you will be fined!

 

David Turetsky: 34:59
Yeah, we're not giving you legal advice. We're just telling you that the lowest common denominator now is just freaking post the range.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 35:05
Yes. I agree.

 

David Turetsky: 35:06
Yes. What else from a compensation perspective, do you think, or what else do you think is happening between compensation and recruiting to keep that relationship? Is it? Do you think that comp is educating the recruiting group? Do you think that recruiting is giving comp some education on what they're seeing in the market? Where is this relationship going? Adriana, where is this relationship going?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 35:28
Well, I think it's actually hard on the organization to keep up with all this, because it's hard to keep up with the laws, and it's hard to get buy in from the top to post the compensation. So we, we're, we're acting like it's easy, but it's actually kind of complicated. So, Yes

 

David Turetsky: 35:47
Oh yeah, you know, there's this tribal again, tribal knowledge executives don't want to give lower level staff access to this data. They think they can't handle it. But it requires education. It requires people to be trained. This is what it means. This is what a salary structure is. This is what a salary range is. This is why we post these ranges.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 36:08
Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 36:08
This is our policy on compensation.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 36:11
and this is why we have technology to show you labor market data. And this is why we have a compensation system that you know, integrates in with HR systems. This is why all the tools exist for you.

 

David Turetsky: 36:24
Right, right. Well, and using them all together, you paint the picture, and you tell a story, and you train the people that need to know, the stakeholders that need to know. Why are we doing what we do?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 36:37
Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 36:38
You're treating people like adults making business decisions.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 36:41
Yeah, agreed.

 

David Turetsky: 36:43
Okay, that's good. So let's go to the third one. This is a fun one too, and we covered this already. How does pay transparency change recruiting? Well,

 

Adriana DiNenno: 36:53
I actually have answers to that!

 

David Turetsky: 36:55
Yeah. Let's talk about it.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 36:56
Yeah. I think we went back to the candidate expectations, I think ever since COVID, and I think in general, for some reason, there's been a shift in the seeker mindset, and paid transparency is really making the seekers more, I think, confident, and we're no longer scared. You were talking about, like, when, like, back in the day, when, like, I know when I had one of my first interviews, like, 20 years ago. Like, it no one wanted to talk about Bruno. It was,

 

David Turetsky: 37:32
No you don't talk about Bruno!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 37:33
They didn't want to talk, if you brought it up, you were like, Oh my gosh, should I have brought that up?

 

David Turetsky: 37:37
Well, and you might be disqualified by bringing up too early. Like, why are you talking about pay? We don't know if we want you yet!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 37:43
Exactly. And now it's like, honestly, it's like, one of the first questions that often you get you talk about,

 

David Turetsky: 37:52
Yeah.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 37:53
because they know seekers no longer want their time wasted. Now, the part that's really hard in recruiting that I want to talk about is some of the higher paying jobs. Like, let's just say you make 200 a year and you post the salary for a $200,000 job a year, right? It's, it's high paying. It's great. Like, honestly, you're probably going to get some seekers eventually, and it's not as bad as if you're posting like a lower paying job. And so what's happening is recruiters are having to sell jobs that are lower paying with other perks. So it's like, oh, this may only pay 30 grand, but here's these other benefits of the job. So it's forcing, I know I have a friend in recruiting, and, you know, it's, it's a lower paying job that she sometimes recruit for, and she's having to get really creative when the posting includes the salary to kind of showcase some of the other things that can't be monetarily, you know, a perk. So I think that is changing with recruiting so

 

David Turetsky: 39:06
Well. So what you're saying is, is that they need to sell beyond the comp or sell beyond the salary, and which might include benefits, it might include perquisites, it might include culture.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 39:17
Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 39:17
It might include purpose.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 39:19
Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 39:19
So there's a lot of other things.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 39:20
And people want that! Especially ever since COVID.

 

David Turetsky: 39:23
Yeah, of course they do. They want purpose. They want to, they want to know that they're not working for an evil person. Which we've heard.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 39:31
No one wants to.

 

David Turetsky: 39:32
No, no, nobody wants to.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 39:33
So, yeah, so I think that's, I think that's how it's changing recruiting.

 

David Turetsky: 39:40
Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. So I guess the next question is, and this is a question that we've been asking a lot, because we're going to ask it. AI, in the world of recruiting, can we escape it? Can we not use it? Or is it now part of the process, and it's never going to go back?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 40:23
I mean, yeah, but I've actually heard people say something's AI that's not AI. And as someone that works in product development, we know the difference when something's built in with AI versus technology. And I feel like there's a huge misunderstanding of, oh, that's AI. And it's like, actually, it's really not, it's just technology. But I do feel like AI is, I mean, we use AI too, and I do feel like it is a game changer. But I personally don't think it's everything, that it's cracked up to be so.

 

David Turetsky: 41:00
Well. I mean, there are different use cases, there are different pieces, there are different methodologies, there's different technologies. And so just saying AI, we're we could be talking about generative AI, we could be talking about machine learning, we could be talking about natural language processing. There's a ton of different things. So, yeah, no, I totally get it, and you're absolutely right. But I think the point is that when you get into the recruiting process and think about the world of the candidate experience, usually the first experience that we have is somebody going up on the website, seeing a job description and then posting for that job. And in that process, an AI gets back to them, like, literally seconds later and says, Hey, we got your experience. We think you're really experienced, but we have other candidates that are better experienced than you, and therefore we're going to move on with them, and you're out of the process. You mean three seconds later after I hit the submit button? You already know that?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 41:59
Yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 42:00
Well, we know that that's the AI, going through the person's resume, using the decision trees that they have, and making a decision, we're no longer going to keep this person

 

Adriana DiNenno: 42:09
That puts a lot of pressure on the seeker to make sure that their resume is like state of the art.

 

David Turetsky: 42:14
Right. With all the different fields.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 42:17
I mean, as a writer here, ex-journalism major like, you need to have many people review your resume. It can't be just a you process in order to get through that screening process.

 

David Turetsky: 42:28
Well, there are professionals who write resumes too!

 

Adriana DiNenno: 42:31
Yes, there are.

David Turetsky: 42:32
And I've actually had professionals rewrite my resume. Now, you can't, you can't paint a turd and make it look less like a turd. So there's that for me. So, you know, sorry, but, you know, sorry for the illusion that everybody's now getting in their head about me, but yeah, you know, you can't polish a turd, and that's the problem I have. Is that, you know, if I, even if I have a professional resume writer, look at my resume, they're like, Yeah, I can't help you. You're done. Yeah. Just go, you know,

 

Adriana DiNenno: 43:04
That's funny.

 

David Turetsky: 43:04
Just go.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 43:05
I love your analogy.

 

David Turetsky: 43:06
But, but seriously, though, we have a lot of and I know there's a lot of people out there who are listening, are like, Yeah, I've had this experience too, where you wrote a book on something like this, where it's really hard to get a freaking job. It's even harder to get that first interview and when you do, you know you have to really be ready for it. So now somebody's got, let's assume somebody got past the first stage and they're in the interview process, and now the scheduled interview is with an AI bot.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 43:34
Yeah!

 

David Turetsky: 43:34
A chat bot, or it's with an AI avatar.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 43:37
I know I just saw a platform that is a video interviewing, and it takes all your words, using AI, makes a transcript and basically analyzes your entire video and all the responses and tells the recruiter like a synopsis of whether They're gonna knock you out or not based on your video, right?

 

David Turetsky: 44:04
They say this person's a serial killer. Get rid of them. Yeah.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 44:06
It's not just the recruiter watching the video anymore and seeing Adriana's smiling face and like, what I'm you know, my. You're missing that, like you're just seeing a transcript now. So your answers got to be rock on.

 

David Turetsky: 44:21
Right, but, but so it's actually doing an analysis of your sentiment, of your verbal language, language skills. It's doing a temperament and emotional

 

Adriana DiNenno: 44:33
It is matching what you say to the job description if you use the right buzzwords.

 

David Turetsky: 44:38
Right, right. But, but in some ways that's wonderful because it gives you transcript and scoring and all that stuff. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't have any emotion it doesn't have any

 

Adriana DiNenno: 44:48
No emotional connection there. Yeah, no, um, that's, that's it.

 

David Turetsky: 44:55
Well, so that's that step, right? So let's say the AI says this person seems like they're a good candidate. Here's the probability that that candidate will be successful in an organization. So then they go on to the next level,

 

Adriana DiNenno: 45:10
If you still have the candidate, because I've read research lots of it when I did a Disrupt HR presentation, and candidates don't want more than two to three interviews. So if you're doing too much software and putting them through all these things, they will drop off in the funnel.

 

David Turetsky: 45:30
Do you include in that, the assessments, the technical assessments?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 45:33
Yes, you do include in that, yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 45:36
Okay. So you're, you're including in that, then all the steps, and you're basically saying, Get it done quickly with as few steps as possible. That means don't send them to nine interview rounds.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 45:50
Yep!

 

David Turetsky: 45:51
If you can't make up your freaking mind after two or three interviews with maybe with a hiring manager too, then don't do it, because you're gonna lose the candidate.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 46:00
I have to say, I mean, from my personal experience, this job I'm at now, I did like, two interviews, and that was it, and that's part of the reason I took the job. I actually backed myself out of some jobs when they wanted like, five, six interviews, because I thought they were kind of playing games. So I mean, you're better off to do an interview panel, like, all in a row, versus doing like, Oh, now you meet with this person this day, and then five days later, this person.

 

David Turetsky: 46:30
When you say a panel, you mean all the same time, or do you mean?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 46:32
Even not at the same time, if they're back to back, like, like, every like, 15 minutes, this person.

 

David Turetsky: 46:38
Okay, but, but let me tell you the nightmare that that that is. There's no such thing as a 15 minute interview, because you're starting to get to know somebody in 15 minutes, and then, and then that person goes to 30, and then you have two that are backed up because of that.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 46:52
Yeah, well, I don't think that you can have the seeker interview with seven people in the organization then, but at the same time, when I took my first job, I interviewed with 10 people at once.

 

David Turetsky: 47:04
Right

 

Adriana DiNenno: 47:04
And I was right out of college. Oh my gosh, you should have seen me like this little new college grad came into a room 10 people, yeah, and they all fired questions at me, and I was, like, so scared but I got the job!

 

David Turetsky: 47:19
Well, there you go! And then, and then you realize you didn't want it, but, but

 

Adriana DiNenno: 47:23
13 years later!

 

David Turetsky: 47:24
Yeah, exactly, but. But where I was going with that is that the candidate really needs to have a good feel for the

 

Adriana DiNenno: 47:34
organization

 

David Turetsky: 47:34
organization, the culture. So if you start to do ones that are 15 minutes, back to back to back, you're already setting them up for disaster, because you're basically telling them, Look, we want a lot of people to give input on you, and we don't want it to be just one person. We're going to do this as a committee. Great. But guess what? We're so disorganized, and you know, we know that that things are going to get off the rails, that's okay.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 48:01
Yeah, I mean, and so this is why technology and AI are only so good. That comes down to your recruitment process. You could be using the best, I mean, interview scheduling tool mixed with AI. You could be doing the best assessments. And if you're not doing it right, then you're you're going to kiss the good candidates goodbye and that's not good in the hard to fill positions.

 

David Turetsky: 48:25
Oh, and the negative feedback. And I can understand, I think I, I think I can understand it if it's a very senior hire, and they have a global impact, and they have, you know, lots of direct reports, and you want to get a lot of people's feedback on that. No, I get that.
Adriana DiNenno: 48:40
Yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 48:41
But, and especially if it's a C level, but if you're, if you're interviewing first level professional, or even a non exempt role,

 

Adriana DiNenno: 48:49
An individual contributor. Yeah, exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 48:52
You know, get the senior manager, maybe get a supervisor, maybe get a a practitioner, who's doing the job

 

Adriana DiNenno: 48:58
And that's what I loved here. I had, like the senior managers and that that was it. So.

 

David Turetsky: 49:03
So our advice is, be pithy,

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:06
Yes,

 

David Turetsky: 49:07
Be quick.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:08
Use the technology right in your process. So,

 

David Turetsky: 49:11
And the process shouldn't be driven by the technology, the your culture, what works for you should but you have to work within whatever the technology is giving you.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:22
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

 

David Turetsky: 49:25
Adriana, it's always a pleasure to talk to you.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:27
I know you're making me nervous. I'm starting to sweat!

 

David Turetsky: 49:30
Why?

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:31
Just kidding, it's just really hot in here.

 

David Turetsky: 49:32
It is really hot. I'm wearing a sports jacket and I am dying in here.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:36
I don't know how you're doing that, because I'm sweating because I'm so hot.

 

David Turetsky: 49:39
I just feel, it feels like they just turned the air on, because I just got a some wind come in maybe.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:44
But there was no water earlier.

 

David Turetsky: 49:45
No, no.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:46
But don't worry everyone. It's really fun. Just no water.

 

David Turetsky: 49:49
Yeah, yeah. We're in a desert. It's hot in here, and there's no water

 

Adriana DiNenno: 49:52
Someone had a booth with water. And I was like, sitting there.

 

David Turetsky: 49:55
Yeah? Well, if you go outside, they charge you, like, $8 for a small bottle of water. So. So there you go. But Adriana, it's always a pleasure meet with you. Always a pleasure to sit down again. Adriana didn't know has one of the top downloaded episodes, because it's on mental health. It's very important, and because this is suicide awareness month, go listen to it. It's still relevant. It's still a beautiful story.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 50:18
And I'm still a huge advocate for mental health myself, I cannot even emphasize so, yeah, go listen to it. And, you know, keep going.

 

David Turetsky: 50:28
Yep. So again, thank you. Take care.

 

Adriana DiNenno: 50:31
Thank you

 

David Turetsky: 50:32
and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 50:34
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