Chris Havrilla – HR Tech 2024 – How to Reduce Technological Adoption Barriers in Organizations

Connect with Chris:

• 

Connect with David:

• • 

• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Salary.com Consulting practice
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 24
• HR Data Labs Season 8 Episode 22

• “I think the thing that is really messing people up is the notion of transformation [when adopting new HR technologies] . . . but if you can show people how to take baby steps, the momentum builds pretty quickly.”

Announcer: 0:01

The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by Salary.com, your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

 

David Turetsky: 0:38

Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host. David Turetsky, here at the HR Technology Conference 2024 live and in person at Mandalay Bay exposition center in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. And today, I have with me one of my BFFs forever. Chris Havrilla from Oracle.

 

Chris Havrilla: 0:59

Best friends forever!

 

David Turetsky: 1:00

Forever. We're yogurt buddies!

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:02

Yes we are. Yes we are.

 

David Turetsky: 1:03

We will always have that New Jersey yogurt place.

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:06

That's right

 

David Turetsky: 1:07

That will be our Paris!

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:08

That'll be our Paris, in our in our quasi residence in West Orange.

 

David Turetsky: 1:20

Yeah, that's right. And Marguerite, Santa Maria

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:24

Oh my god

 

David Turetsky: 1:24

she was our buddy

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:25

family. I mean,

 

David Turetsky: 1:26

Yes, oh my God. Mishpocha!

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:29

Exactly, I learn something new every time I'm with you.

 

David Turetsky: 1:33

And I do too, and that's why I appreciate your friendship. But Chris, as we do with every podcast, we need to know one fun thing that no one knows about Chris Havrilla?

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:43

Oh, wow!

 

David Turetsky: 1:46

I choose the hard ones first.

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:47

You do, you do. What is something fun? Um,

 

David Turetsky: 1:52

Fun, new, different.

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:53

Something new, different, I think. Little known fact

 

David Turetsky: 1:59

Okay

 

Chris Havrilla: 2:00

Little known fact, everybody knows I'm into F1 right now.

 

David Turetsky: 2:06

Yes

 

Chris Havrilla: 2:06

Everybody knows I am a big supporter of the Oracle Red Bull team. But very, very few people know how that got started and where the love came from.

 

David Turetsky: 2:17

Yeah, love to hear Wow

 

Chris Havrilla: 2:18

And I will tell you that, from the very right? where. And I would go, and I would work at the Road Atlanta track, doing timing and scoring with, like, probably, maybe 14, I used to go to dirt tracks because I'm a southern girl, and we love all sports, and we love cars, and we, you know, just the whole thing, cars and trucks and everything. So I would start, you know, I would go to these dirt track races. And then I kind of evolved, you know, into sports car racing. little stop watches, because I'm that old and we and then I went into Race Control where, you know, with our walkie talkies, we would, you know, find out what was happening in other turns and put it on the master board for chief steward. And then I had race car driver come and ask me to be on his pit crew.

 

David Turetsky: 3:15

Wow. right. Not a lot of technology at that time

 

Chris Havrilla: 3:16

So I could do what is, what is known in like NASCAR today and stuff like that as a spotter, but it did not have a name like that. I literally would time and tell him the differentials between the car in front of him, if The data and the technology and how it's evolved there was one of the car behind split times all the differentials, how much he'd need to increase his speed. And I'd write it on chalkboards. into how you build a high performing team,

 

David Turetsky: 3:49

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 3:49

is like, like, people are like, how do you learn all this about F1? I'm like, it's like, everything I love, all coming together.

 

David Turetsky: 3:57

And that transitions very well into how to create a high performing team in the world of business.

 

Chris Havrilla: 4:02

That's right, it is because finance and HR and IT have to work together, don't they?

 

David Turetsky: 4:09

They have to be a big pit crew. Yes

 

Chris Havrilla: 4:11

Yes, they really do. And I am the spotter for now.

 

David Turetsky: 4:18

There you go, people. It is comes full circle. That's right, that's Chris Havrilla. Okay, we're gonna end the podcast right there. We're done.

 

Chris Havrilla: 4:24

That's all she wrote.

 

David Turetsky: 4:25

No, I'm kidding. So one of the beautiful things about being at the HR Technology Conference is that you look around and you see the vastness of how HR has changed. And you could say it's HR process. You could say it is the HR technology, but they go one in hand, right? Go one hand in the other. So Chris, you've been in HR for a long time, just like me. What have you seen as far as evolutions of HR? What are the things that you're seeing as trends, as evolution of HR?

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:05

I think the thing that really stands out to me is the fact that it is, I think we're finally at this point where the technology can work for us.

 

David Turetsky: 5:18

Okay

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:18

Right? It has been the work forever, like we fed the beast, we fed the beast, we fed the beast and and we just didn't get, it became the work itself. And for me to see that in a very organic way, this could actually change how people work and operate, if you let them, especially.

 

David Turetsky: 5:37

Sure

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:38

You know. And that is super exciting to me, because every time I think about some of these things, the lens I look at now, when I walk this show floor is, will people just change how they work? Will they see the opportunity and go, Oh, my God, I can do this better, faster, this that? Will they see it and start to explore it that way, or is it just going to add another step? Because they're not going to change working. But it should be so seamless, it should be so organic, that I change how I operate.

 

David Turetsky: 6:13

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:13

Right? And, and I see that promise in so many of these booths. It certainly is at the heart of what I do when I'm, you know, thinking about what our investment strategies is,

 

David Turetsky: 6:26

Sure

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:27

Will this actually fundamentally change the way a manager manages? Without some big top down transformation,

 

David Turetsky: 6:33

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:34

You know, where everybody takes the same training and then now you know how to go be an empathetic leader? Yeah, no.

 

David Turetsky: 6:41

That doesn't work.

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:41

It doesn't.

 

David Turetsky: 6:42

No.

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:42

And we saw that over and over and over again, even in, you know, where we've worked together in the past,

 

David Turetsky: 6:47

Yes

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:48

right?

 

David Turetsky: 6:48

No names.

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:49

So I just that, to me, is the promise. I also think it's going to change of the way HR operates. And I think that's super exciting, because we've said that for a long time.

 

David Turetsky: 7:00

And by the way, I want to touch on that, if you don't mind. We just keep taking old process and putting it into a new technology.

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:09

Right

 

David Turetsky: 7:10

And we go, why isn't it getting easier? Why isn't it getting better?

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:13

Why did we add more steps?

 

David Turetsky: 7:14

We took a Personnel Action form that was a piece of paper, we put it in that very secure manila envelope with the red thread, and then we'd send it through into our office mail. We just have automated that thing, and keep auto maybe we put it in Excel instead of putting it in through PeopleSoft or whatever.

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:32

Right

 

David Turetsky: 7:34

But, but we haven't fundamentally changed how that works. There's still transactions in that same facet. But doesn't that have to break down? Don't we have to get rid Yes! of that shit?

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:43

We absolutely do, and I think it's probably a lot of the FUD, the fear, uncertainty and doubt around AI and things like that. But the but the interesting thing to me right now, and I've and I could already see it like, you know, just even in, you know, a product we, you know, we announce, you know, back in May and in, and I saw a lot of the We have to change everything. Everything HR, you know, people look at it and go, that's our job, right? That's our job. Like we define the roles. We do this, we do that. And in, you know, it definitely takes some conversations where you can finally just say, You know what? Look at yourself as a facilitator. Think of yourself as a solution provider, not a service with answers, but how to facilitate solutions, because you are operating in the dark. And if I could show you, in a way not to operate in the dark, where no data is left behind, that will actually make your job easier. Would you be open to that? And it's not going to mess up your structures, so that you still have the safety blanket of a structure. But what if we do something every year and it's all the same data, and it really is making people step back and think, and to start kind of small and move fast. Because I think the thing that is really messing people up is this notion of transformation. like and so. There's risk, and all of a sudden everything stops because they can't boil the ocean. But if you could show people how to take baby steps,

 

David Turetsky: 9:24

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 9:25

It actually, the momentum builds pretty quick.

 

David Turetsky: 9:28

But the key that I love talking about when it comes to that is the moving of cheese.

 

Chris Havrilla: 9:32

Yes

 

David Turetsky: 9:33

People freaking hate cheese moving, and it's not even and sometimes even if you prove to them that it's better to be in a refrigerator than sitting on a on a plate, out in the open, where it's getting moldy. They don't care, because it's comfortable there.

 

Chris Havrilla: 9:49

Yep

 

David Turetsky: 9:49

They're okay with it there. They can look at it. To me, HR is the epitome of, don't move my cheese. How do you get them off that? You've, you're

 

Chris Havrilla: 9:57

Yes. speaking really wonderfully about all these great benefits to doing it, but, but everybody's so resistant to it! They're they're resistant to it because the exact reason they will zig and zag all day long and complain about it. Right? When you could show them a straight line, look, I can show you a straight line to get from A to B, but you can't guarantee it, right?

 

David Turetsky: 10:22

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:23

They can. They can see it. It's all but it's almost like a mirage, right? But I know, if I zig and zag, then I know what to expect. You know, even on that journey.

 

David Turetsky: 10:34

Of course

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:35

I think what was fascinating about COVID is that cheese got moved for them, right?

 

David Turetsky: 10:42

Yeah. It had to.

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:43

And productivity soared, by the way, outside of

 

David Turetsky: 10:43

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:45

Because we want to, you know, we want to, we HR, inside of HR, everywhere. Productivity soared, and then it started to drop back down. And it was right about the time command and control came back in want things to be normal, right?

 

David Turetsky: 11:00

Quote, unquote, normal. Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 11:01

And I do think you're seeing all these companies now like people have to come back to the office. We have to do this. Things have to go back to normal. And productivity is going, is going down and down and down again, yet in the same breath saying we need to be more productive. We need to be more effective. And so I do think that the one thing that we can do is if we can show people those baby steps right, where it takes the risk out. But, but shows them that they can get to those

 

David Turetsky: 11:28

Yeah outcomes a little bit faster. But that trust has to be built. That trust has to be built, but this notion of command and control does have to go away. Like the fact that the only reason, the only way I can see forward and where I've seen it work, and I have seen it work, we do have customers where we have gotten traction, but it's only been when they did baby steps to build momentum. They did everything with purpose. They broke it down into, let's say, a three month project, like, we're just going to focus on this. Because once it starts to elongate, leaders change this changes the stress comes in that makes everybody want to go to safety. yeah, or you get some periods of downward pressure on finances.

 

Chris Havrilla: 12:16

Totally.

 

David Turetsky: 12:16

And it all, everybody goes, Oh, we have to come back to the office.

 

Chris Havrilla: 12:19

Disruptions we always hear about, right? Whatever form it takes, you have to just time block stuff out and have you know, it's kind of design thinking, 101, right? But let's, let's just get a an MVP, right? An MVP, an MVP, that's the only thing I've seen work that are making it, makes it a little bit more organic, because people can see if I do an outcome, like an MVP, right? If I do that, and I get it like I'm building the trust, right? And so whether that's in a system or a process, right? But this, this kind of notion of a process needs to go away. I like what I did this week to get to my outcome, and what I do next week is all going to depend on on my

 

David Turetsky: 13:03

Everything might change. Absolutely.

 

Chris Havrilla: 13:05

So we have to get out of this complete notion of it's got to be this way or no way.

 

David Turetsky: 13:11

You mentioned this before, and I think it's very true, that people like comfort and people like repeatability. People don't like shocks to the system. They don't, they don't do well with change, and so therefore, every time something goes wrong, they go back to their safety. And safety is control. Safety is, oh, cover my butt or whatever. And there's been so much disruption, there's been so much change, and we got used to it for a little bit, and we started getting pretty good at it, but now it's all gone away. It's reverting back to old ways.

 

Chris Havrilla: 13:45

It is. And I think a lot of that is, is trying to kind of bring that control, you know, back into things. But I, but I do believe that's why things have to be kind of broken up.

 

David Turetsky: 13:57

Yeah.

 

Chris Havrilla: 13:57

And you know, this the power of data right now. I mean, you can't, you can't deny it. Like you can start to see, you know, and thank goodness for things like chat, GPT, that kind of, you know, there's all kinds of things you can say about it. But it really made this so mainstream that it

 

David Turetsky: 14:14

yeah gave people a reason to think differently and to say, you know, what, if somebody's going to try to cheat the system, right? I think, because it's going to do this paper, but at least they're thinking outside the box, and they're just trying to make something easier for them. And that's the lens, you know, and that's what then the guardrails and controls can come in after that, right? Because you have to kind of give, like, what's the rules? Where you can't, you can't copy. But Chris, you and I both lived through probably high school when we were still using typewriters, but then there were some computers around. Some kids used computers, some used typewriters, and we went through the transition where people were like, No, you can't use a computer to send this assignment there or to print this assignment out, because it's gonna help you with spell check and whatever.

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:02

Right

 

David Turetsky: 15:03

Well, we went through those times. Now there's Grammarly. Now there's chatGPT and Gemini and blah, blah, blah, and all of them can help kids to your point, right? Those are the tools that those kids have available to them. When it was us, it was either a Selectric or as a Corona, or it was an apple two or a TRS 80 from RadioShack. But those are the tools

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:28

Apple 2E for me

 

David Turetsky: 15:29

I had an apple two plus

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:30

Oh

 

David Turetsky: 15:31

but that was before the E, the E came after. And then there was the Mac that I actually had in college,

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:36

the box!

 

David Turetsky: 15:37

yes, exactly. That had the monitor inside And it was a gray screen monitor, if you

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:40

Absolutely! remember, I do

 

David Turetsky: 15:43

black and white, but it was still one little thing

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:46

Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 15:47

And so we've got to get over this, you know, how work gets done

 

Chris Havrilla: 15:52

Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 15:52

Stop worrying about that!

 

Announcer: 15:55

Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now, back to the show.

 

David Turetsky: 16:06

Now, there's the other sides of it that I've been talking about all week here, which is the risk of people putting stuff in the wild and having the walled garden and having, you know, the data sources that are trusted.

 

Chris Havrilla: 16:18

Right

 

David Turetsky: 16:19

Having the, at least the data be curated to make sure that we know what's going into these models and what's going into the algorithms

 

Chris Havrilla: 16:28

Right

 

David Turetsky: 16:29

But for frack's sake, use the tools at your disposal and get smarter about them before everybody else is doing it and you're not!

 

Chris Havrilla: 16:38

You know, bingo, the key you just said there. I feel like I preach this day and night, but if you don't open your eyes to the technology and learn what it is, you can't learn how it can help you. But I do think the lens we all need to look through is, well, you know, and. And look, one thing we're all good at is human nature is being selfish.

 

David Turetsky: 17:00

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 17:00

You know, and, and so embrace that and say, Well, how could this help me? Like, what if somebody let me hire somebody tomorrow? Well, what I have them do, right? It's the same thing, you know. And so knowing what I look if I hired somebody new tomorrow, it would be awkward. And, and, and I'm not gonna trust them, they're not gonna trust me. We kind of have to feel each other out

 

David Turetsky: 17:23

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 17:24

But we do it, right, and and the faster we do it, the faster we kind of embrace that person, you know, ask some questions. See what they're you know, it's the same thing with this, right?

 

David Turetsky: 17:36

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 17:36

So, like, be selfish. Go learn about it. Go see what it can do, play with it, see what it can't do,

 

David Turetsky: 17:42

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 17:43

And then figure out, like, be lazy, be selfish, right? And figure out how this can help you do something different, if it's creating more work or distracting you from your outcomes and not helping you get there, then move on. It's not going to be for every thing!

 

David Turetsky: 18:00

So what you just said made a lot of sense, so much that I started thinking, you know, I could actually ask these technologies to help me sell.

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:08

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 18:09

And then I thought, Oh, well, you know, I also have Salesforce. And I know some there are some tools built in Salesforce that do something like this. We just need to embrace them.

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:17

Right. Absolutely, it's gonna be awkward.

 

David Turetsky: 18:20

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:20

Getting to know somebody is awkward. But, you know, I look at this as I've got, I got head count, I just didn't get before, right? And now, what can it do for me?

 

David Turetsky: 18:30

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:31

You know? And I do think that that if everybody would just take some time and learn about it, just like you would, somebody coming on your team,

 

David Turetsky: 18:40

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:41

How can we help each other?

 

David Turetsky: 18:42

What's fascinating is, there was that kerfuffle on LinkedIn not too long ago. I'm not going to mention the company name, but a company said they were hiring an AI and it was going to have a job description. They were going to pay it all that stuff. People lost their freaking mind. Ah, this is a marketing baloney. This is, you know, you're, this is horseshit. Are you gonna do development for it? Are you gonna, are you gonna give it a seat? Are you gonna come on, really? You know, even if it is a marketing thing, bravo!

 

Chris Havrilla: 19:11

Right

 

David Turetsky: 19:11

Bravo. They're thinking about the future. You, you're worrying about, well, why is this bothering you that they did this, right? Why do you have to beat them up for it?

 

Chris Havrilla: 19:19

I actually agree with that. I was really surprised by that whole thing. Like I said, you know, I loved that they were humanizing it in a way and I was really shocked by the response. And you know, in hindsight, I think it did play into fear and uncertainty and doubt. But, you know, I would say in this world of we keep talking about skills and capabilities, is maybe think of it that way. You know that? Because I do think machines are workers in our workforce.

 

David Turetsky: 19:52

Sure

 

Chris Havrilla: 19:52

But if we don't want to humanize it that way, that's fine. But these machines have skills and capabilities that we don't have. And we've got ridiculous skills and capabilities they don't have.

 

David Turetsky: 20:04

That's right

 

Chris Havrilla: 20:05

So if we can start thinking about what, how does work get done?

 

David Turetsky: 20:08

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 20:08

And again, how can I embrace this, you know, set of skills and capabilities, right?

 

David Turetsky: 20:15

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 20:15

Because I don't have time to call through a bunch of data in 18 different systems.

 

David Turetsky: 20:19

Exactly. Yeah, a ton of research, ton of time.

 

Chris Havrilla: 20:20

But if this does and can bring it back to me and put some structure to it, then I can sit around and argue with it, and, you know, and then apply my curiosity and my critical thinking and get somewhere, and I just saved two days worth of research. Right!

 

David Turetsky: 20:38

Absolutely, and that's where this is to me, this is no different than when, you know, there were cars, when there were horses, and when there was the tractor before there were people or oxen. These are gigantic leaps of productivity that these are tools that will enable us to do things. Now, if we have to humanize them, give them a social security number, make them pay taxes. Okay, fine.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:05

Whatever.

 

David Turetsky: 21:06

I don't care! Makes the tax base richer. But you know, the selfishness, if I can get my job done better.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:13

Absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 21:14

I'm going to use that tool!

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:15

Better, faster, have more of an impact.

 

David Turetsky: 21:17

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:18

Hello?

 

David Turetsky: 21:18

yeah. This is exactly what the words competitive advantage mean!

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:21

Exactly, exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 21:23

And if you don't embrace it, get the hell out of my way!

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:26

Well, the whole very definition of innovation is it's going to answer one question, and three more are going to pop up

 

David Turetsky: 21:32

Absolutely!

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:33

You know, and, and,

 

David Turetsky: 21:34

what if I?

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:35

We're going to get stale, right? Like we're we're never going to have an impact!

 

David Turetsky: 21:39

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:39

We're never going to have an edge. I want an edge. You want an edge?

 

David Turetsky: 21:42

Absolutely.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:43

Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 21:43

Yes.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:44

Boom.

 

David Turetsky: 21:45

Okay, hold on. We just dropped the mic.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:47

Drop the mic. Literally.

 

David Turetsky: 21:51

That's the reason why I love Chris Havrilla.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:55

This is epic. You think about something like performance.

 

David Turetsky: 21:56

Yeah I mean, if we're gonna, you know, let's bring it back to performance and comp, or something like that. How many times have you been in a performance review where some, literally, the last two months is the only thing we've talked about? Recency effect, absolutely

 

Chris Havrilla: 22:09

Totally but if I can sum, if this, if this machine summarizes everything over the last year, probably brings up the stuff I forgot to document,

 

David Turetsky: 22:18

exactly, and the great stuff, yeah,

 

Chris Havrilla: 22:20

brings it together and, and now I have a better conversation. And the then my boss and myself are not jaded with trying to go back through all this stuff, like, if it's gonna lead to a better conversation, like, I'm all good and, but guess what? Guess what? If chat GPT comes back and, or, you know, my wonderful Oracle tool comes back. This the system formulates a, you know, a base of a document for my boss to play with, and now make it her own. I will know in a heartbeat if it's not her voice.

 

David Turetsky: 22:58

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 22:58

So I, it was funny. I got a lot of media when we first started to release some of this stuff. Then that said, Well, you know, then what if the manager never does anything? I'm like, you think the worker won't recognize that? Like this will self manage a little bit. But if I can get a good, reasonable performance document that's comprehensive, that now I can take into the comp, you know, kind of process and things like that, I have a much better chance of getting fair pay.

 

David Turetsky: 23:28

But Chris, it is exactly what you said though before. It's better feedback because it's been summarized over the year.

 

Chris Havrilla: 23:35

Yes

 

David Turetsky: 23:36

We are human! We forget stuff, the good and the bad, the happy and the sad. I'm gonna break out into a song. Take the good with the bad, the happy with the sad. Sorry, sorry, everybody. I apologize for that.

 

Chris Havrilla: 23:51

It's okay. They didn't see my dance moves.

 

David Turetsky: 23:57

We'll add video as the as the addendum to this. No, but seriously though, if you could give managers and employees and assist by giving all of the really good highlights and low lights. Listen, performance evaluations have stopped being about how to be better, so that you can change for next year and get more and do more and be better, right? They've become a, well, my boss hates me because they gave me a one out of five.

 

Chris Havrilla: 24:25

Right

 

David Turetsky: 24:26

No, they don't hate, I mean they might hate you, but they don't hate you, or they shouldn't hate you. But it should be an objective conversation about, did you achieve the things that you had set out with your boss?

 

Chris Havrilla: 24:38

Right

 

David Turetsky: 24:39

Did that align with your job description, it should have!

 

Chris Havrilla: 24:42

Yes

 

David Turetsky: 24:42

If it doesn't, we got other. I mean, that goes back to the data being accurate from before.

 

Chris Havrilla: 24:48

But it also goes back to that conversation, right? I would tell you that if you asked my boss right now what my PowerPoint skills and what my what I would say my PowerPoint. Skills are, would be two very different scores. But if we, if I just put a PowerPoint on my profile tomorrow, and we, and it drove a better conversation, whether that was actually you need some development on that, or actually you should be teaching some other people. Or, you know, I don't, you don't have all those bells and whistles. And I was like, Yeah, but I had a better conversation, right? Like, it's all perspective that needs to be discussed when we're thinking about how to unlock my performance of potential.

 

David Turetsky: 25:31

Exactly.

 

Chris Havrilla: 25:32

And because that data point could have different meanings and perspectives and uses. So those are all the things, but we get so mired in what like, if you go back to skill data, okay, you know, I've seen this with, you know, with people as they start to think about adoption, okay, but what about proficiency? And what about validation? Like, what about the conversation?

 

David Turetsky: 25:53

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 25:53

And then we can again, those baby steps, yes, let's just talk. Let's just put the PowerPoint on there first, and then we can have a conversation, and then we can start to see what is, what will say. This number could represent what it would be that perspective. And then you can start to build accordingly. It's baby steps.

 

David Turetsky: 26:14

It is, but we have so gotten as a people, as a culture, and it's not just the US. It's beyond performance evaluations as a practice is just garbage these days. Nobody likes it. Everybody doesn't look forward to it. I mean, I love it. I love feedback. I don't get any. You probably get some. Hopefully it's real, all good feedback. But I mean, seriously, though

 

Chris Havrilla: 26:37

I get a lot of feedback.

 

David Turetsky: 26:38

I'm sure you do. I get some too, but No, but seriously, it stopped being what it was. It stopped being about, how do I develop like you were saying, How do I become better? How do I get a better career? How do I get more comp whatever? And it's all about, do they like me or not?

 

Chris Havrilla: 26:55

Well, I do think that's the promise and the organic change that I see coming and, or at least when I think about how we're investing, right? How do we kind of democratize the data and the insights to drive better conversations, you know? And I think about, like, what we did with Oracle grow, right? We're, we're actually putting that down, and we're saying in this, we're in your role now, but also, you know, for future potential in your org, right? Doesn't mean everything is right, but it gives that worker something to talk about with that manager, because that is perspective, maybe even that worker didn't think, because we still have a tendency to think, not you and I, because when you look at our job titles over the last several years have changed dramatically. So I know you and I don't self identify in one title, but a lot of people do, right? And and to have that ability to because we might trust the machine better than even our moms or dads or friends or colleagues or bosses, right? And to say, Well, why did it say that? Let me look into this a little more, right? But I would have never known to look there in the first place, right? That's where I think this will slowly change the way we think, because we all are inherently we want to succeed. We want more money, we want more opportunity. We want better challenge. We're selfish. Maybe I, you know, I've always said I'm a little lazy because I want to get to this point B faster, right? But, but it makes me work more innovatively, because I want to, I want that edge!

 

David Turetsky: 28:33

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 28:33

So I do think that's the promise of a lot of this AI right now, even if we have to argue with it, it's gonna, it's gonna make us think differently.

 

David Turetsky: 28:44

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. We have to learn how to argue with it. We have to learn how to work with it. We have to build skills to be able to understand what it even means, because there's so much noise, especially here.

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:25

Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 29:25

Not, I'm not talking about the noise in the microphones. I'm saying there's so much noise of the differences. What is it? What is AI? Because every, every single except for the Omaha Steaks people, yeah, everybody's talking about AI.

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:39

And I think we have to ask that every single person in here has to say, but what's it going to do for me? But what's it going to do for me? Like, give quit thinking about the buzzwords, and say, what is this going to do for me? And then I have to think about, will that help, or will that create more work for me?

 

David Turetsky: 29:55

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:56

Like, we just have to break this down a little bit more simple. So because, you know, at the end of the day, that really is what is going to actually drive the kind of traction that we need. But I really firmly believe, and I think all of us as vendors, and all of the people here serving, you know where we are going to claim AI and black box and and things like that, is we also kind of have to have a little bit of a why box so we can contextualize.

 

David Turetsky: 30:27

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 30:28

If something is giving a recommendation or a suggestion, why?

 

David Turetsky: 30:32

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 30:33

Put a why there, so, so you have something to argue with.

 

David Turetsky: 30:36

Right

 

Chris Havrilla: 30:36

Not just, Oh, okay. Or, and maybe even that kind of fixed box. Well, what if that's like wrong? Then there's something behind it that needs to be fixed.

 

David Turetsky: 30:48

I learned something new for the first time at the show, and I forget who it was who told me it. I think it was Richard Rosenow. He said that there are bots that will check other bots because sometimes artificial intelligence, it dreams up,

 

Chris Havrilla: 31:05

It hallucinates. Right exactly,

 

David Turetsky: 31:06

Because it's using other AI generated content to give back an answer.

 

Chris Havrilla: 31:11

Right

 

David Turetsky: 31:12

Okay, holy shit! Because if that's what's happening, right, sorry for the language, but holy shit. You know, if it's coming up with an answer that's a lie, or it's coming up with an answer that's not exactly based in fact. Obviously those two things can exist, co exist, because we know that, that there's a difference between a lie and something that's not exactly true. My eyes are going back.

 

Chris Havrilla: 31:37

That's a whole nother podcast.

 

David Turetsky: 31:39

That's a political podcast we could have for like, hours, but so seriously!

 

Chris Havrilla: 31:43

Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 31:44

If the things that we're relying on to give us true answers that because it's a computer and how could it lie? But it's dreaming shit up on its own? Oh my god!

 

Chris Havrilla: 31:56

Well you know what? We argue with each other. We debate each other all the time. We've got to learn to do that with the machines, but the more we can make it easy by doing that, providing some context that why box and fix box is exactly why I think you know we need that, especially while we're gaining trust with this you know this stuff, but also to know if there is a problem and that we do need to go back and check something, fix something. What's the source? What's driving this?

 

David Turetsky: 32:24

Iguess, at the end of the day, what, what we're talking about is we still need to do QA on this stuff. We still need to make sure that the answers that are being given not just are accurate. I mean, yeah, we got to check the math. We got to make sure that we're going to be able to be okay with when it's not, and that, if this is what we're adopting, and how we're adopting and how we're going to embrace it, unless we put in those other agents to make sure that the answers are correct, and keep doing unit tests and keep doing accuracy, you know, whether it's spot check or every single one, we're going to have to assume that some of the stuff is wrong.

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:01

We do with people. We should do it with machines.

 

David Turetsky: 33:04

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:04

You know, we it's, oh, we should question things, and we should train people when they aren't doing things the right way, or machines too, right? That's, it's, you know,

 

David Turetsky: 33:18

Well the machines are trained by people, so

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:20

they are and data

 

David Turetsky: 33:22

and data, and we all know the HR data is not clean.

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:25

Yeah, so that's why none of this is perfect. I don't know that we're going to get answers. We have to look at it right now, and at least in the beginning, as suggestions and recommendations and. But yeah, I mean us not thinking is not a good plan for this.

 

David Turetsky: 33:41

Right. But the world's not perfect.

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:43

No.

 

David Turetsky: 33:44

And we're not perfect.

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:45

No.

 

David Turetsky: 33:45

So why should we assume that the technology is? I mean, you know, for whatever reason, my iPhone crashes every once in a while.

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:51

Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 33:51

I love it, but it crashes.

 

Chris Havrilla: 33:52

It does.

 

David Turetsky: 33:53

The Internet crashes. Things happen so we have to build that into what we're doing.

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:00

Right. That's it exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 34:09

Sounds like we're creating religion. Well, it's perfect, but it's not perfect. It's something we believe in, but we don't believe in it.

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:15

I don't ever say anything is perfect.

 

David Turetsky: 34:17

Yeah

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:18

I don't ever think I have the answers

 

David Turetsky: 34:21

You're perfect, Chris Havrilla.

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:22

No.

 

David Turetsky: 34:22

Yes, you're perfect for me. You are so beautiful.

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:28

I won't even sing. I'm already losing my voice.

 

David Turetsky: 34:31

It's me. Can't you see? Actually, it's the first time I've ever sang on the podcast.

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:36

I was just about to say first time I think I've ever heard you sing, and it's not bad!

 

David Turetsky: 34:41

It's for you, it's serenading. And for those of you who are still listening to that, and I haven't actually made you deaf, I apologize, but that's what Chris does to me. I mean, this is my yogurt BFF. So

 

Chris Havrilla: 34:56

That's right, yogurt BFF, forever, for sure

 

David Turetsky: 34:58

Chris, it's always a pleasure.

 

Chris Havrilla: 35:00

Thank you. This was awesome.

 

David Turetsky: 35:02

You know what? I think I should just call you every once in a while to serenade you, or

 

Chris Havrilla: 35:06

Maybe you should.

 

David Turetsky: 35:07

I won't record it like this, but

 

Chris Havrilla: 35:09

we won't subject everyone

 

David Turetsky: 35:14

but again, thank you very much.

 

Chris Havrilla: 35:16

Thank you for having me. This was great.

 

David Turetsky: 35:18

All right, take care, stay safe.

 

Announcer: 35:19

That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week, and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.